16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

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16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Torfinn Ingolfsen
Hello,

I have an old laptop, a Compaq Armada 1580DMT, with 16M RAM, 2GB hd,
floppy and CD-rom. It doesn't have built in networking, neither wired
nor wireless. It does have PC card slots. It has had FreeBSD 4.9-release
installed a long time, and was recently upgraded to 4.11-release from
CD, sucessfully.

However, I would like better pccard support, ie. 32 bit cardbus and
wireless network cards, so I would like to install 6.1-release (or
-stable) on it.
However, when I try the 6.1-release CD (CD1), it boots as far as
loading the kernel, botting the kernel, and then reboots again??

I have also tried 6.0-release, and 7.0-current (both July 06 and Aug 06
snapshots) with the same results.

Are 16 Megs of RAM to little to install FreeBSD 6.0 or newer?
--
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen,
Norway

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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Nikolas Britton
On 8/26/06, Torfinn Ingolfsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have an old laptop, a Compaq Armada 1580DMT, with 16M RAM, 2GB hd,
> floppy and CD-rom. It doesn't have built in networking, neither wired
> nor wireless. It does have PC card slots. It has had FreeBSD 4.9-release
> installed a long time, and was recently upgraded to 4.11-release from
> CD, sucessfully.
>
> However, I would like better pccard support, ie. 32 bit cardbus and
> wireless network cards, so I would like to install 6.1-release (or
> -stable) on it.

How do you know it has CardBus / PCMCIA 2.1 / JEIDA 4.2? have you
checked? This standard was introduced in 1995.

> However, when I try the 6.1-release CD (CD1), it boots as far as
> loading the kernel, botting the kernel, and then reboots again??
>
> I have also tried 6.0-release, and 7.0-current (both July 06 and Aug 06
> snapshots) with the same results.
>
> Are 16 Megs of RAM to little to install FreeBSD 6.0 or newer?

Yep. Try DragonFly BSD, it's based on FreeBSD 4.x code so it should be
able to cope with an antique such as this. NetBSD would also be a good
choice. I would say at least 32MB for FreeBSD 6.x... my FreeBSD
6.1-STABLE kernel is using 52MB (I think I have debugging enabled
though).



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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Darren Pilgrim-2
In reply to this post by Torfinn Ingolfsen
Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have an old laptop, a Compaq Armada 1580DMT, with 16M RAM, 2GB hd,
> floppy and CD-rom. It doesn't have built in networking, neither wired
> nor wireless. It does have PC card slots. It has had FreeBSD
> 4.9-release installed a long time, and was recently upgraded to
> 4.11-release from CD, sucessfully.
>
> However, I would like better pccard support, ie. 32 bit cardbus and
> wireless network cards, so I would like to install 6.1-release (or
> -stable) on it. However, when I try the 6.1-release CD (CD1), it
> boots as far as loading the kernel, botting the kernel, and then
> reboots again??

Try turning off all power management and plug-and-play support in the
BIOS and booting FreeBSD without ACPI.  Try combinations of these three
things.  Often older hardware has really broken APM/ACPI support that
makes FreeBSD do odd things.

Failing that, you may need to build a custom kernel with just the
minimum required to get yourself to a shell prompt.  You can build a new
kernel with cardbus, usb and other extras after you get FreeBSD installed.

--
Darren Pilgrim
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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Nikolas Britton
In reply to this post by Nikolas Britton
On 8/26/06, Nikolas Britton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/26/06, Torfinn Ingolfsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have an old laptop, a Compaq Armada 1580DMT, with 16M RAM, 2GB hd,
> > floppy and CD-rom. It doesn't have built in networking, neither wired
> > nor wireless. It does have PC card slots. It has had FreeBSD 4.9-release
> > installed a long time, and was recently upgraded to 4.11-release from
> > CD, sucessfully.
> >
> > However, I would like better pccard support, ie. 32 bit cardbus and
> > wireless network cards, so I would like to install 6.1-release (or
> > -stable) on it.
>
> How do you know it has CardBus / PCMCIA 2.1 / JEIDA 4.2? have you
> checked? This standard was introduced in 1995.
>
> > However, when I try the 6.1-release CD (CD1), it boots as far as
> > loading the kernel, botting the kernel, and then reboots again??
> >
> > I have also tried 6.0-release, and 7.0-current (both July 06 and Aug 06
> > snapshots) with the same results.
> >
> > Are 16 Megs of RAM to little to install FreeBSD 6.0 or newer?
>
> Yep. Try DragonFly BSD, it's based on FreeBSD 4.x code so it should be
> able to cope with an antique such as this. NetBSD would also be a good
> choice. I would say at least 32MB for FreeBSD 6.x... my FreeBSD
> 6.1-STABLE kernel is using 52MB (I think I have debugging enabled
> though).
>

Ok I checked three other 6.x boxes. Dmesg reports the kernel using
35MB, 34MB, and 19MB of RAM at system startup. Top reports 297MB,
38MB, 167MB, and 621MB active... The two largest numbers are running
X11/KDE and the two smallest numbers are servers.


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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Peter Jeremy
In reply to this post by Torfinn Ingolfsen
On Sun, 2006-Aug-27 03:46:52 +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>I have an old laptop, a Compaq Armada 1580DMT, with 16M RAM, 2GB hd,
...
>However, when I try the 6.1-release CD (CD1), it boots as far as
>loading the kernel, botting the kernel, and then reboots again??

The CD-ROMs create a RAMdisk and need a minimum of 24MB last I checked.
Once you have FreeBSD installed, it will limp along in 16MB (though
not very happily).  I strongly suggest you find a SODIMM to expand it.

--
Peter Jeremy

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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Torfinn Ingolfsen
In reply to this post by Nikolas Britton
On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:44:24 -0500
Nikolas Britton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How do you know it has CardBus / PCMCIA 2.1 / JEIDA 4.2? have you
> checked? This standard was introduced in 1995.

I don't *know* it, but all evidence seems to point in that
direction. :-)
Quote from chapter 7 of the user guide:
"Important: the PC Card slots on the computer are CardBus slots that
support 16- and 32-bit PC Cards. They support the newer generation of
32-bit (CardBus) designed to take advantage of audio, video,
multifunction and high-speed LAN capabilities".
BTW, first edition of the User Guide is from March 1997,
I also tested with a CardBus card, and it fits into the slot.

> Yep. Try DragonFly BSD, it's based on FreeBSD 4.x code so it should be

Ok, So DragonFlyBSD supports CardBus cards? I'll try it.
--
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen,
Norway

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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Torfinn Ingolfsen
In reply to this post by Peter Jeremy
On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:13:29 +1000
Peter Jeremy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The CD-ROMs create a RAMdisk and need a minimum of 24MB last I
> checked.

And I guess that the floppies work in the same way?

> Once you have FreeBSD installed, it will limp along in 16MB
> (though not very happily).

Hmm, I see. I'm planning to run X on this old box (it's going to be a
PictureFrame project), perhaps that will not work.

> I strongly suggest you find a SODIMM to
> expand it.

Ok. Are all SODIMMs equal (ie. a real standard), or do I hvae to look
specifically for memory upgrades for the Armada 1580 (or 1500 series)?
--
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen,
Norway

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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Peter Jeremy
On Sun, 2006-Aug-27 11:00:30 +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:13:29 +1000
>Peter Jeremy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The CD-ROMs create a RAMdisk and need a minimum of 24MB last I
>> checked.
>
>And I guess that the floppies work in the same way?

Yes.

>> Once you have FreeBSD installed, it will limp along in 16MB
>> (though not very happily).
>
>Hmm, I see. I'm planning to run X on this old box (it's going to be a
>PictureFrame project), perhaps that will not work.

I think you would be thrashing if there was any actual activity.  I'll
prod a friend with the same setup to comment tomorrow.

>> I strongly suggest you find a SODIMM to
>> expand it.
>
>Ok. Are all SODIMMs equal (ie. a real standard), or do I hvae to look
>specifically for memory upgrades for the Armada 1580 (or 1500 series)?

I'm 99% certain that you can't use anything bigger than 64MB (at least
a 128MB Cpq Armada SODIMM that I had wouldn't work in any of the 15xx
machines I tried it in - that included a 1580).  I'm not sure how
interchangeable they are.

--
Peter Jeremy

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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Nikolas Britton
On 8/27/06, Peter Jeremy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 2006-Aug-27 11:00:30 +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> >On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:13:29 +1000
> >Peter Jeremy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> The CD-ROMs create a RAMdisk and need a minimum of 24MB last I
> >> checked.
> >
> >And I guess that the floppies work in the same way?
>
> Yes.
>
> >> Once you have FreeBSD installed, it will limp along in 16MB
> >> (though not very happily).
> >
> >Hmm, I see. I'm planning to run X on this old box (it's going to be a
> >PictureFrame project), perhaps that will not work.
>
> I think you would be thrashing if there was any actual activity.  I'll
> prod a friend with the same setup to comment tomorrow.
>
> >> I strongly suggest you find a SODIMM to
> >> expand it.
> >
> >Ok. Are all SODIMMs equal (ie. a real standard), or do I hvae to look
> >specifically for memory upgrades for the Armada 1580 (or 1500 series)?
>
> I'm 99% certain that you can't use anything bigger than 64MB (at least
> a 128MB Cpq Armada SODIMM that I had wouldn't work in any of the 15xx
> machines I tried it in - that included a 1580).  I'm not sure how
> interchangeable they are.
>

Max mem size and chip density is a function of the MCH, If you post a
copy of dmesg here I can look it up for you.

>From the service manual:
"The computer supports optional 8-, 16-, 32-, and 64-MB memory boards.
The memory boards are 60 ns EDO RAM without parity. System memory can
be expanded to 80-MB of DRAM depending on the model."

The Service Manual is here:
http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/CoreRedirect.jsp?redirectReason=DocIndexPDF&prodSeriesId=96219&targetPage=http%3A%2F%2Fh20000.www2.hp.com%2Fbc%2Fdocs%2Fsupport%2FSupportManual%2Fc00139858%2Fc00139858.pdf

And Addendum to the service manual is here:
http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/CoreRedirect.jsp?redirectReason=DocIndexPDF&prodSeriesId=96219&targetPage=http%3A%2F%2Fh20000.www2.hp.com%2Fbc%2Fdocs%2Fsupport%2FSupportManual%2Fc00139129%2Fc00139129.pdf



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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Fabian Keil-2
In reply to this post by Torfinn Ingolfsen
Torfinn Ingolfsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have an old laptop, a Compaq Armada 1580DMT, with 16M RAM, 2GB hd,
> floppy and CD-rom. It doesn't have built in networking, neither wired
> nor wireless. It does have PC card slots. It has had FreeBSD 4.9-release
> installed a long time, and was recently upgraded to 4.11-release from
> CD, sucessfully.

> However, when I try the 6.1-release CD (CD1), it boots as far as
> loading the kernel, botting the kernel, and then reboots again??

> Are 16 Megs of RAM to little to install FreeBSD 6.0 or newer?

With the default configuration yes.

I recently tried to install FreeBSD 6.1-PRERELEASE on a
Pentium 90 with 16 MB RAM, and hit the rebooting problem as well.

I moved the harddisk into a more powerful machine,
installed FreeBSD there, build a lighter kernel and
put the disk back.

NFS mounting needed a work around:
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=kern/94830
but the rest worked out of the box.

In your case it's probably easier to create a disk image
in Qemu, copy it to a CD and then use something that
boots from a floppy, supports the CD-Rom drive and brings
dd with it, to "install" the image.

Depending on your partition layout you may even
be able to use your old FreeBSD installation to do that.
(I'm not sure if it's possible to use FreeBSD to overwrite
the partition it's running from).

Fabian
--
http://www.fabiankeil.de/

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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Torfinn Ingolfsen
On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:13:12 +0200
Fabian Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:

For information: I'm still trying to find a sodimm card for this
machine, as everything would be easier if it had more memory.
We'll see how I manage that; here in Norway it is not so easy to find
things like that, and transport costs from the US are prohibitive for
a hobby budget.

> I moved the harddisk into a more powerful machine,
> installed FreeBSD there, build a lighter kernel and
> put the disk back.

Are there any FAQ's arounf for things I can safely remove from a 6.1
kernel?

> NFS mounting needed a work around:

I won't need NFS, so that's not a problem.

> In your case it's probably easier to create a disk image
> in Qemu, copy it to a CD and then use something that

Hmm, I'm not very familiar with Qemu. A quick web search didn't turn up
any obvious pointers on how to create a ISO image from a qemu image, or
how to make an ISO image from the (currently running) Qemu image.
Do you have any pointers to a HowTo for this?

> boots from a floppy, supports the CD-Rom drive and brings
> dd with it, to "install" the image.

Yes, this sounds like a good plan.
--
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen,
Norway

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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Warner Losh
16MB is enough to run FreeBSD for limited applications, with carefully
crafted kernel.  It is not enough to run sysinstall.  Last I checked,
sysinstall was pushing 24MB in size, with 32MB being really better.

Warner
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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Pieter de Goeje
In reply to this post by Peter Jeremy
On Sunday 27 August 2006 09:13, Peter Jeremy wrote:

> On Sun, 2006-Aug-27 03:46:52 +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> >I have an old laptop, a Compaq Armada 1580DMT, with 16M RAM, 2GB hd,
>
> ...
>
> >However, when I try the 6.1-release CD (CD1), it boots as far as
> >loading the kernel, botting the kernel, and then reboots again??
>
> The CD-ROMs create a RAMdisk and need a minimum of 24MB last I checked.
> Once you have FreeBSD installed, it will limp along in 16MB (though
> not very happily).  I strongly suggest you find a SODIMM to expand it.

A friend of mine installed 6.1 successfully on a pentium with 48MB ram. It
runs quite well actually :) He didn't try to to install X however.

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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Oliver Fromme
In reply to this post by Torfinn Ingolfsen
Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
 > Are 16 Megs of RAM to little to install FreeBSD 6.0 or newer?

As others have pointed out, installation via sysinstall
requires at least 24 MB of RAM.  So you either have to
prepare your own installation media, or put the harddisk
in a different PC, install FreeBSD there, and move the
disk back.

In any case you should carefully tune your kernel confi-
guration to only include those things that you really need.
There are also options to exclude certain parts, e.g. the
syscons driver has seveal options to exclude copy&paste,
font loading and other things, which can save some space.
Don't forget to configure plenty of swap space; you'll
probably need it.  And have a look at the tuning(7) man
page which has several hints that may help for low-memory
situations.

If you want to run X11 (a current version of Xorg), you
absolutely must upgrade the RAM.  You won't be happy with
16 MB only.  But even with more RAM, running X11 won't be
much fun, because the CPU isn't very fast, I guess.

If you want to run a light-weight graphical web browser,
I recommend links (in X11 graphics mode, option "-g") or
dillo.  Both are available from the ports collection.
They support only limited JavaScript, though, and no
Flash, Java or anything more advanced.

Best regards
   Oliver

--
Oliver Fromme,  secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing
Dienstleistungen mit Schwerpunkt FreeBSD: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd
Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author
and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way.

"IRIX is about as stable as a one-legged drunk with hypothermia
in a four-hundred mile per hour wind, balancing on a banana
peel on a greased cookie sheet -- when someone throws him an
elephant with bad breath and a worse temper."
        -- Ralf Hildebrandt
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Re: 16M RAM enough for FreeBSD 6.1?

Fabian Keil-2
In reply to this post by Torfinn Ingolfsen
Torfinn Ingolfsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:13:12 +0200
> Fabian Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For information: I'm still trying to find a sodimm card for this
> machine, as everything would be easier if it had more memory.
> We'll see how I manage that; here in Norway it is not so easy to find
> things like that, and transport costs from the US are prohibitive for
> a hobby budget.
>
> > I moved the harddisk into a more powerful machine,
> > installed FreeBSD there, build a lighter kernel and
> > put the disk back.
>
> Are there any FAQ's arounf for things I can safely remove from a 6.1
> kernel?
I don't think so, but usually the comments are enough to decide
if you need something or not. The man pages help with the rest.

> > In your case it's probably easier to create a disk image
> > in Qemu, copy it to a CD and then use something that
>
> Hmm, I'm not very familiar with Qemu. A quick web search didn't turn up
> any obvious pointers on how to create a ISO image from a qemu image, or
> how to make an ISO image from the (currently running) Qemu image.

You can burn the Qemu image like every other file, you can even burn it
directly without putting it into an ISO file first. You should stop Qemu
first though, otherwise you might end up with an inconsistent image.

If you only want to replace a partition, you can load the image
with mdconfig to extract the partition you need.

Fabian
--
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