FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
32 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

FreeBSD Core Team Secretary
The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
what action to take.  Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
neither the Project nor the Foundation.

--
FreeBSD Core Team

signature.asc (629 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Core: Yes please, Code of Conduct committee: No Thanks.

Julian H. Stacey-3
FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote:
> The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
> Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> what action to take.  Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
> would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
> neither the Project nor the Foundation.

Core@ statements always welcome.

But Code of Conduct committee merit no automatic credence since:

  Code of Conduct aims were cloned from an ultra feminist group of
  non FreeBSD members, part paid by foundation, then shoved on
  FreeBSD before discussion, by a voluble few in FreeBSD

  The new CoC terms were hotly disputed. core@ failed to remove it
  before many tuned out, despairing of the politics [& lack of core@
  backbone, probably themselves scared of being labeled anti-whatever],

  New CoC putch-ists took seats on CoC

FreeBSD had a CoC before the putch with the new feminist etc CoC.
        https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html
CoC could be replaced with the old one from SVN, or from
        https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Consultant Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Aachen Kent
 http://stolenvotes.uk  Brexit ref. stole votes from 700,000 Brits in EU.
 Lies bought; Groups fined; 1.9 M young had no vote, 1.3 M old leavers died.
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Miroslav Lachman
In reply to this post by FreeBSD Core Team Secretary
FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote on 2019/05/10 03:24:
> The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
> Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> what action to take.  Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
> would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
> neither the Project nor the Foundation.


This is incredibly stupid and I am really sad to read things like this
in the mailinglist of my favourite operating system (again).
What will be next? Checking if developers do not smoke weed, drink
alcohol or have sex without condom?

"Be well, John Spartan"

What's wrong with this world?

I am from the country where totalitarian regime ruled for 40 years. I
was lucky to have seen freedom and lived freedom after the revolution
many years ago but now I am afraid that we have Thought Police even in
FreeBSD community. I never thought I'd live to fear again to speak freely.
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Marko Zec-2
On Sun, 12 May 2019 03:16:22 +0200
Miroslav Lachman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote on 2019/05/10 03:24:
> > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements
> > made on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the
> > Code of Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and
> > will decide what action to take.  Both the Core Team and the
> > FreeBSD Foundation would like to make it clear that views shared by
> > individuals represent neither the Project nor the Foundation.  
>
>
> This is incredibly stupid and I am really sad to read things like
> this in the mailinglist of my favourite operating system (again).
> What will be next? Checking if developers do not smoke weed, drink
> alcohol or have sex without condom?
>
> "Be well, John Spartan"
>
> What's wrong with this world?
>
> I am from the country where totalitarian regime ruled for 40 years. I
> was lucky to have seen freedom and lived freedom after the revolution
> many years ago but now I am afraid that we have Thought Police even
> in FreeBSD community. I never thought I'd live to fear again to speak
> freely.

+1 here, from another country which transitioned from 45 years of harsh
totalitarian rule, through a brief period of relative freedom, to a more
subtle form of a (thought) police superstate we happily live in today.

Rest assured your worries about FreeBSD CoC enforcers are unfounded,
though.  Namely, last year several developers, including the one who is
now being "investigated", orchestrated a lengthy rant on an internal ML
targeting a population group based on race, sex, and sexual
inclination, while invoking on EU convention on human rights protecting
their right to do so.  Neither the CoC comitte nor the Core team found
that disturbing, probably as true believers to freedom of thought and
speech.  So, assuming they stick to their principles, I don't see why
would they intervene now, particularly given that the developer has
expressed his opinions outside of the project's MLs or other forums.

Marko
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Greg V
In reply to this post by Miroslav Lachman


On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 03:16, Miroslav Lachman <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote on 2019/05/10 03:24:
>> The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements
>> made
>> on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
>> Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will
>> decide
>> what action to take.  Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
>> would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals
>> represent
>> neither the Project nor the Foundation.
>
>
> This is incredibly stupid and I am really sad to read things like
> this in the mailinglist of my favourite operating system (again).
> What will be next? Checking if developers do not smoke weed, drink
> alcohol or have sex without condom?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

Speaking freely does not mean you are entitled to having your speech
published by any forum or mailing list. Having rules and enforcing them
is good, every project has the right to enforce their rules in their
spaces.

The only problem here is that the "report" was posted by a known troll,
so hopefully the outcome of the investigation is

a) nothing, and

b) mail from known anonymous email domains no longer gets accepted into
mailing lists.


_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Sulev-Madis Silber (ketas)
In reply to this post by Miroslav Lachman
On Friday, May 10, 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
> Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> what action to take.  Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
> would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
> neither the Project nor the Foundation.
>
> --
> FreeBSD Core Team
>


is this a political party?! i thought it was developer team of certain
specific area server operating system?

first, i would like to know if this is a joke? because it must be! then, if
it's not, what has said and by who?

was it like "i hate women" or "i don't recommend fbsd for this purpose"?

anyway, i'm not surprised if developers act strange on *social* media, as
they often behave what would be called inappropriate at best... that's why
they write code and don't sing on eurovision song contest, become elected
as president of the united states, or play on the newest marvel action
movie as a lead actor...
i know this, as i often act bad... sometimes i tell people which kind
mental disorders i have been diagnosed with ("only" asperger's syndrome, if
you're curious) as i often have problems of not understanding certain
social rules, which can't be fixed in any way, doesn't matter if people
insult me on how i did it again and how come i can't ever learn... sorry, i
really can't! each time it's surprise to me what happened...

i've used fbsd since v4.6, and despite having written some code already, i
don't really see myself becoming something like "official developer" if it
gives me this "extra butt" i could be kicked into if needed

also, if hans reiser in one day comes and wants to do something, do we turn
him down with like "sorry, you can't write code here, you killed your
wife"? really?

i think freebsd has enough purely technical disagreements that we don't
really need anything ELSE into this mix (like, what did the dev tweet last
 night)


On Friday, May 10, 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
> Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> what action to take.  Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
> would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
> neither the Project nor the Foundation.
>
> --
> FreeBSD Core Team
>
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
v-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

v-2
On Sun, May 12, 2019, at 7:50 PM, Sulev-Madis Silber wrote:

> On Friday, May 10, 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> > on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
> > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> > what action to take.  Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
> > would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
> > neither the Project nor the Foundation.
> >
> > --
> > FreeBSD Core Team
> >
>
>
> is this a political party?! i thought it was developer team of certain
> specific area server operating system?
>
> first, i would like to know if this is a joke? because it must be! then, if
> it's not, what has said and by who?
 

FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation can claim injury to reputation. We are waiting to see if they claim injury.

“Tort: a wrongful act, other than breach of contract, that results in injury to another party’s person, property, dignity, or reputation, and which is recognized by statue or common law as a legitimate basis for liability.” (2014, July 30). Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ6smN3lcnY

Vester
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Julian H. Stacey-3
[hidden email] wrote:

> On Sun, May 12, 2019, at 7:50 PM, Sulev-Madis Silber wrote:
> > On Friday, May 10, 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> > > on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
> > > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> > > what action to take.  Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
> > > would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
> > > neither the Project nor the Foundation.
> > >
> > > --
> > > FreeBSD Core Team
> > >
> >
> >
> > is this a political party?! i thought it was developer team of certain
> > specific area server operating system?
> >
> > first, i would like to know if this is a joke? because it must be! then, if
> > it's not, what has said and by who?
>  
>
> FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation can claim injury to reputation. We are waiting to see if they claim injury.
>
> “Tort: a wrongful act, other than breach of contract, that results in injury to another party’s person, property, dignity, or reputation, and which is recognized by statue or common law as a legitimate basis for liability.” (2014, July 30). Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ6smN3lcnY
>
> Vester
Not cc'd [hidden email]

whois researchbsd.org : Creation Date: 2018-11-04T10:38:50.00Z

Core is not a legal entity, just a mail list, can't sue.

Foundation is in USA.  Accused is not.  USA law & morals not pre-emptive.
Other countries have laws, courts & morals. Leave it to them & non tech lists.

Orange haired person wrote lots of good code, an asset not to loose.

Let's have current@ writeable only by subscribers as a mild troll deterent.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Consultant Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Aachen Kent
 http://stolenvotes.uk  Brexit ref. stole votes from 700,000 Brits in EU.
 Lies bought; Groups fined; 1.9 M young had no vote, 1.3 M old leavers died.

_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Igor Mozolevsky-2
In reply to this post by FreeBSD Core Team Secretary
On Friday, 10 May 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
> Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> what action to take.

<snip>

> --
> FreeBSD Core Team


This seems to be a wanton  violation of Article 19 of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights [1].


1. https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/


--
Igor M.
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Igor Mozolevsky-2
On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 18:28, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:

> On Friday, 10 May 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> > on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
> > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> > what action to take.
>
> <snip>
>
> > --
> > FreeBSD Core Team
>
> This seems to be a wanton  violation of Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [1].
>
> 1. https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/


More applicable if you think that UN declarations don't apply to you:-
 https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-1293_1o13.pdf


--
Igor M.
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
v-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

v-2
Igor et al,

Instead of debating definitions of hate speech, free speech, and trying to discover intent, I suggest we focus on right relationships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A14THPoc4-4

Vester



On Fri, May 17, 2019, at 12:08 AM, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:

> On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 18:28, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> > On Friday, 10 May 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> > > on social media by a FreeBSD developer.  We, along with the Code of
> > > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> > > what action to take.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > --
> > > FreeBSD Core Team
> >
> > This seems to be a wanton  violation of Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [1].
> >
> > 1. https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
>
>
> More applicable if you think that UN declarations don't apply to you:-
>  https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-1293_1o13.pdf
>
>
> --
> Igor M.
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A14THPoc4-4
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Igor Mozolevsky-2
On Sat, 18 May 2019 at 00:10, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Igor et al,
>
> Instead of debating definitions of hate speech, free speech, and trying to discover intent, I suggest we focus on right relationships.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A14THPoc4-4



This is a typical example of reframing a problem in one side's
favourable terms. Freedom of expression is a fundamental freedom as
recognised by the United Nations, and is guaranteed by the highest
courts of any civilised society. Attacking one's freedom of expression
under whatever auspices makes one an EXCEPTIONALLY terrible person
that should go and re-thing their life purpose! End of discussion.


--
Igor M.
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Adam Vande More
On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 4:12 AM Igor Mozolevsky <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> This is a typical example of reframing a problem in one side's
> favourable terms. Freedom of expression is a fundamental freedom as
> recognised by the United Nations, and is guaranteed by the highest
> courts of any civilised society. Attacking one's freedom of expression
> under whatever auspices makes one an EXCEPTIONALLY terrible person
> that should go and re-thing their life purpose! End of discussion.
>

I'd go a bit further and say its also every individuals right to be exposed
to such things, and make judgements for themselves.  The voices who are the
most different deserve the most protection.  Without these, any "freedom of
speech" is illusion.  One wonders where these advocates of censorship will
turn when the tool they helped create is eventually turned back on them.

--
Adam
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

grahamperrin
In reply to this post by Igor Mozolevsky-2
I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but
these six words did make me chuckle:

 > … freedom of expression … End of discussion.

No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to
launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-)

Wishing you all a peaceful end to the weekend,

Graham
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Warner Losh
On Sun, May 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Graham Perrin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but
> these six words did make me chuckle:
>
>  > … freedom of expression … End of discussion.
>
> No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to
> launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-)
>

Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell
fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. FreeBSD is
also an international group and while we share many norms, there are also
surprising differences in them or in the extent to which people think our
community norms should be policed in contexts only tangentially related to
the project. It's really quite a thorny problem to craft a response to that
is both meaningful and would enjoy the support of most of this diverse
community in whose name the response is created.

Warner



Wishing you all a peaceful end to the weekend,
>




Graham
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
>
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Igor Mozolevsky-2
In reply to this post by grahamperrin
On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:27, Graham Perrin wrote:

> I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but
> these six words did make me chuckle:
>
>  > … freedom of expression … End of discussion.
>
> No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to
> launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-)


Context is everything: for example, repeatedly punching someone in the
face is generally frowned upon, yet is lauded in boxing ;-)


Best,

--
Igor M.
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Igor Mozolevsky-2
In reply to this post by Warner Losh
On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote:

>
> On Sun, May 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Graham Perrin wrote:
>
> > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but
> > these six words did make me chuckle:
> >
> >  > … freedom of expression … End of discussion.
> >
> > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to
> > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-)
> >
>
> Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell
> fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example.

<snip>

While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as
"freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded
theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or
opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is
triggered by precisely the latter.


--
Igor M.
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Adam Vande More
On Sun, May 19, 2019, 12:42 PM Igor Mozolevsky <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, May 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Graham Perrin wrote:
> >
> > > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but
> > > these six words did make me chuckle:
> > >
> > >  > … freedom of expression … End of discussion.
> > >
> > > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to
> > > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-)
> > >
> >
> > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell
> > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example.
>
> <snip>
>
> While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as
> "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded
> theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or
> opinions.
>

Additionally, the ruling from which that quote came was used to suppress
dissent and imprison people for just that.  It is a very shaking foundation
on which to launch a censorship campaign. The main group was sentenced for
yelling fire when there really was one.

>
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Warner Losh
In reply to this post by Igor Mozolevsky-2
On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, May 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Graham Perrin wrote:
> >
> > > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but
> > > these six words did make me chuckle:
> > >
> > >  > … freedom of expression … End of discussion.
> > >
> > > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to
> > > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-)
> > >
> >
> > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell
> > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example.
>
> <snip>
>
> While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as
> "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded
> theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or
> opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is
> triggered by precisely the latter.
>

It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its
members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm comes from
expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme it causes real and lasting
problems either for the cohesiveness of the project, or its effect on the
project's reputation is so extreme, people can't separate the two and stop
using it. There needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme.
At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered for
'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from the project that
could otherwise be spent on making things better. The trick is to have any
such review reflect the broad consensus within the project of what's
clearly out of bounds, as well as having a fair and just response by the
board in the cases that require some action.

Warner
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts

Igor Mozolevsky-2
On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 20:16, Warner Losh wrote:
>
> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote:

<snip>

>> > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell
>> > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as
>> "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded
>> theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or
>> opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is
>> triggered by precisely the latter.
>
>
> It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its
> members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm
> comes from expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme
> it causes real and lasting problems either for the cohesiveness
> of the project, or its effect on the project's reputation is so
> extreme, people can't separate the two and stop using it. There
> needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme.

It's very difficult to subscribe to that view! The first problem you
encounter is "what is an objectively extreme expression"--what is
extreme to one, might be entirely common place to another. I'm sure
whatever religious book one takes there is a passage that goes along
the lines of "judge people by their deeds not by their words"...
Secondly, the greatest legal minds in the US wrangled with that and
came up with one answer: *ANY* expression is protected for otherwise
it would not be "freedom."


>At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered
> for 'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from
> the project that could otherwise be spent on making things
> better. The trick is to have any such review reflect the broad
> consensus within the project of what's clearly out of bounds,
> as well as having a fair and just response by the board in
> the cases that require some action.


Agreement by consensus is most dangerous, for, usually, the loudest
wins because people with no backbone fall in-line; the best
explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a
sheep deciding what to have for dinner!"


--
Igor M.
_______________________________________________
[hidden email] mailing list
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
12