FreeBSD has a politics problem

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FreeBSD has a politics problem

David Fox
As a young adult user, webmaster and someone's who was trying to construct a project scope for using FreeBSD as replacement for our pre-existing systems within a animation studio, this is a let down.

Diversity is a thing, and yes it's a big thing on the internet and in real life. I work with it everyday and its tricky. However not only do I feel offended as it kind of targets me but also embarrassed at the way this is going.

How hard would of it been to gone to the community (You do have forums) "Here's a draft copy of our CoC, people read and get back to us with feedback by: date" but no its like "Take it or leave it" and reading the motto of "Shut up and Code And Conduct"  from the email leak -- I'm sorry but that's just so rude. If not insulting.

My money may not be a sponsorship money but still donated; on belief what FreeBSD was doing right. Can I get a refund.

Let me remind what the homepage mentioned when I donated:

"By donating to the foundation, you are helping us fund and manage projects, sponsor FreeBSD events, and provide travel grants to FreeBSD developers. You are also helping us represent the Project in executing contracts, license agreements, copyrights, trademarks, and other legal arrangements that require a recognized legal entity." Is the CoC any of this?

And now If I am hearing right you're now using my donation money which had my intent on development and improvement to reach outside and hire someone who's not even related to the foundation, nor if any have any idea to the whole world of IT. It's just shameful. Not only does this effect the foundation but it also ruins the pitch I was hoping to show.. Thanks.

Having moderators deleting sensible debates. Censorship, and an large email leak, yeah that really shows maturity.  You got racism, rude remarks, insulting behavior all rolled into one and online now. Just my 2cents.

I'm just someone who is trying to encourage FreeBSD's growth and someone in a younger generation which you need to push the drive. Everyone knows *nix but not really does anyone know FreeBSD. Stop the censorship and actually start listening to what users have to say. Politics have started to take over FreeBSD and the foundation is starting to turn blind with age. If not influenced by those who should really not have any say.
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

David Fox
Jeff, Please direct me where discussion is suppose to take place. Seeing as the foundation wants to censor such discussion posts. Pretty calm here but its irritating that there is no channel, even official to discuss.

> On 04 March 2018 at 20:45 David Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> As a young adult user, webmaster and someone's who was trying to construct a project scope for using FreeBSD as replacement for our pre-existing systems within a animation studio, this is a let down.
>
> Diversity is a thing, and yes it's a big thing on the internet and in real life. I work with it everyday and its tricky. However not only do I feel offended as it kind of targets me but also embarrassed at the way this is going.
>
> How hard would of it been to gone to the community (You do have forums) "Here's a draft copy of our CoC, people read and get back to us with feedback by: date" but no its like "Take it or leave it" and reading the motto of "Shut up and Code And Conduct" from the email leak -- I'm sorry but that's just so rude. If not insulting.
>
> My money may not be a sponsorship money but still donated; on belief what FreeBSD was doing right. Can I get a refund.
>
> Let me remind what the homepage mentioned when I donated:
>
> "By donating to the foundation, you are helping us fund and manage projects, sponsor FreeBSD events, and provide travel grants to FreeBSD developers. You are also helping us represent the Project in executing contracts, license agreements, copyrights, trademarks, and other legal arrangements that require a recognized legal entity." Is the CoC any of this?
>
> And now If I am hearing right you're now using my donation money which had my intent on development and improvement to reach outside and hire someone who's not even related to the foundation, nor if any have any idea to the whole world of IT. It's just shameful. Not only does this effect the foundation but it also ruins the pitch I was hoping to show.. Thanks.
>
> Having moderators deleting sensible debates. Censorship, and an large email leak, yeah that really shows maturity. You got racism, rude remarks, insulting behavior all rolled into one and online now. Just my 2cents.
>
> I'm just someone who is trying to encourage FreeBSD's growth and someone in a younger generation which you need to push the drive. Everyone knows *nix but not really does anyone know FreeBSD. Stop the censorship and actually start listening to what users have to say. Politics have started to take over FreeBSD and the foundation is starting to turn blind with age. If not influenced by those who should really not have any say.
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Bryan Drewery-6
On 3/4/2018 2:24 PM, David Fox wrote:
> Jeff, Please direct me where discussion is suppose to take place. Seeing as the foundation wants to censor such discussion posts. Pretty calm here but its irritating that there is no channel, even official to discuss.

Note that Jeff's response was to a thread that had freebsd-current@ as a
CC which is a strictly technical list.  I don't think the same applies
to freebsd-advocacy@.

--
Regards,
Bryan Drewery


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RE: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Deb Goodkin
In reply to this post by David Fox
Hi David,

This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. The
Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD
Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the
Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hopefully
direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns
regarding the Code of Conduct.

Sincerely,

Deb Goodkin
Executive Director
The FreeBSD Foundation

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Fox
Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2018 15:25
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Jeff, Please direct me where discussion is suppose to take place. Seeing as
the foundation wants to censor such discussion posts. Pretty calm here but
its irritating that there is no channel, even official to discuss.

> On 04 March 2018 at 20:45 David Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> As a young adult user, webmaster and someone's who was trying to construct
a project scope for using FreeBSD as replacement for our pre-existing
systems within a animation studio, this is a let down.
>
> Diversity is a thing, and yes it's a big thing on the internet and in real
life. I work with it everyday and its tricky. However not only do I feel
offended as it kind of targets me but also embarrassed at the way this is
going.
>
> How hard would of it been to gone to the community (You do have forums)
"Here's a draft copy of our CoC, people read and get back to us with
feedback by: date" but no its like "Take it or leave it" and reading the
motto of "Shut up and Code And Conduct" from the email leak -- I'm sorry but
that's just so rude. If not insulting.
>
> My money may not be a sponsorship money but still donated; on belief what
FreeBSD was doing right. Can I get a refund.
>
> Let me remind what the homepage mentioned when I donated:
>
> "By donating to the foundation, you are helping us fund and manage
projects, sponsor FreeBSD events, and provide travel grants to FreeBSD
developers. You are also helping us represent the Project in executing
contracts, license agreements, copyrights, trademarks, and other legal
arrangements that require a recognized legal entity." Is the CoC any of
this?
>
> And now If I am hearing right you're now using my donation money which had
my intent on development and improvement to reach outside and hire someone
who's not even related to the foundation, nor if any have any idea to the
whole world of IT. It's just shameful. Not only does this effect the
foundation but it also ruins the pitch I was hoping to show.. Thanks.
>
> Having moderators deleting sensible debates. Censorship, and an large
email leak, yeah that really shows maturity. You got racism, rude remarks,
insulting behavior all rolled into one and online now. Just my 2cents.
>
> I'm just someone who is trying to encourage FreeBSD's growth and someone
in a younger generation which you need to push the drive. Everyone knows
*nix but not really does anyone know FreeBSD. Stop the censorship and
actually start listening to what users have to say. Politics have started to
take over FreeBSD and the foundation is starting to turn blind with age. If
not influenced by those who should really not have any say.
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to
"[hidden email]"
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Julian H. Stacey-3
In reply to this post by David Fox
> My money may not be a sponsorship money but still donated; on belief what FreeBSD was doing right. Can I get a refund.

Did the foundation really waste money on this ?
        https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html 
Bulleted elements are a bad mix of sensible & ridiculous.

A few examples:
    "drugs": If someone is an alcy or druggy, code & commits need
    to be monitored.  BSD is not art enhanceble with drugs.

   "employment": If code or commits emanate from an NSA employee
   it needs to be outed (pref. by self but any other will do)

   "*hug*" Shock ! Horror ! Heaven forfend such offense ! ;-)


https://www.freebsdfoundation.org has no search box to find
if/ how much was paid to make FreeBSD & its people look ridiculous.

It reduced my interest to list the FreeBSD Foundation in my will
  (Wills usually list relatives & friends first if alive, but
  sometimes with a default of a group of charities as fallback)

Rather than waste money on rubbish
  "based on the example policy from the Geek Feminism wiki"

One could look at donating money for BSD _code_ via
  https://www.netbsd.org/foundation/ or possibly
  http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/
we share BSD driver etc code after developed anyway.

PS Re. censored media: jobs@freebsd is also censored.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich
 Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU.
 UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3.
  Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Julian H. Stacey-3
In reply to this post by Deb Goodkin
[hidden email] wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. The
> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD
> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the
> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hopefully
> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns
> regarding the Code of Conduct.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Deb Goodkin
> Executive Director
> The FreeBSD Foundation

Hi Deb,
Did the foundation pay for it ?

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich
 Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU.
 UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3.
  Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Stephen Cook
On 2018-03-04 20:13, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> [hidden email] wrote:
>> Someone else on this thread can hopefully
>> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns
>> regarding the Code of Conduct.

Where?

> Did the foundation pay for it ?

I would like to know also please.


-- Stephen


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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

William Theesfeld Jr
I as well am curious

  < )
  (   \
—X—

> On Mar 4, 2018, at 21:31, Stephen Cook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-03-04 20:13, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
>> [hidden email] wrote:
>>> Someone else on this thread can hopefully
>>> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns
>>> regarding the Code of Conduct.
>
> Where?
>
>> Did the foundation pay for it ?
>
> I would like to know also please.
>
>
> -- Stephen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Bryan Drewery-6
In reply to this post by Julian H. Stacey-3
On 3/4/2018 5:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:

> [hidden email] wrote:
>> Hi David,
>>
>> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. The
>> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD
>> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the
>> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hopefully
>> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns
>> regarding the Code of Conduct.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Deb Goodkin
>> Executive Director
>> The FreeBSD Foundation
>
> Hi Deb,
> Did the foundation pay for it ?
The discussion needs to not demonize people or entities involved on
either side.  It seems to me that it would have been better had this CoC
had more outside review and possibly a draft period where the project
asked for community feedback.  IMHO it's not too late to go down those
paths but we need to take a deep breath and consider that the intentions
of the CoC are only good; that the project should be more welcoming for
everyone.  There's nothing wrong with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC,
even if it had flaws.  It likely would need to help sponsor independent
reviews to weed out unneutral language.


--
Regards,
Bryan Drewery


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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Julian H. Stacey-3
Bryan Drewery wrote:

> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
> --oex5zYNtdOsHH7CGnZTm2mPFhuBKYldVo
> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1";
>  protected-headers="v1"
> From: Bryan Drewery <[hidden email]>
> To: "Julian H. Stacey" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem
> References: <[hidden email]>
> In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>
>
> --YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> Content-Language: en-US
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> On 3/4/2018 5:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > [hidden email] wrote:
> >> Hi David,
> >>
> >> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. Th=
> e
> >> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD
> >> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the
> >> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hope=
> fully
> >> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns
> >> regarding the Code of Conduct.=20
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >>
> >> Deb Goodkin
> >> Executive Director
> >> The FreeBSD Foundation
> >=20
> > Hi Deb,
> > Did the foundation pay for it ?=20
>
> The discussion needs to not demonize people or entities involved on
> either side.

FreeBSD are at liberty to reject a non FreeBSD outsider who wrote this
especially if they were paid to write it, even more so if the paid
outsider hopes rules she/he wrote they'd like to see imposed on us.


> It seems to me that it would have been better had this CoC
> had more outside review and possibly a draft period where the project
> asked for community feedback.

** A draft & period for comment should have been mandatory,
omiting it suggests arrogance or incompetence.


> IMHO it's not too late to go down those
> paths but we need to take a deep breath and consider that the intentions
> of the CoC are only good;

Maybe, or not,  See ** above.


> that the project should be more welcoming for
> everyone.  There's nothing wrong with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC,
> even if it had flaws.

I think legaly Foundation is not answerable to FreeBSD just to the
few who founded the foundation.  Nothing wrong with FreeBSD rejecting
an unwanted gift as incompetent waste of money - if they want.


> It likely would need to help sponsor independent
> reviews to weed out unneutral language.

Whoever sprung this on FreeBSD community without warning should be admonished.

FreeBSD Foundation could ask for a refund from the incompetent who
wrote it, & Foundation in turn could refund those such as the person
who asked "Can I have a refund".

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich
 Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU.
 UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3.
  Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Bryan Drewery-6
On 3/5/2018 11:09 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:

> Bryan Drewery wrote:
>> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
>> --oex5zYNtdOsHH7CGnZTm2mPFhuBKYldVo
>> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1";
>>  protected-headers="v1"
>> From: Bryan Drewery <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Julian H. Stacey" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
>> Cc: [hidden email]
>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem
>> References: <[hidden email]>
>> In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>
>>
>> --YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>> Content-Language: en-US
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> On 3/4/2018 5:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
>>> [hidden email] wrote:
>>>> Hi David,
>>>>
>>>> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. Th=
>> e
>>>> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD
>>>> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the
>>>> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hope=
>> fully
>>>> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns
>>>> regarding the Code of Conduct.=20
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Deb Goodkin
>>>> Executive Director
>>>> The FreeBSD Foundation
>>> =20
>>> Hi Deb,
>>> Did the foundation pay for it ?=20
>>
>> The discussion needs to not demonize people or entities involved on
>> either side.
>
> FreeBSD are at liberty to reject a non FreeBSD outsider who wrote this
> especially if they were paid to write it, even more so if the paid
> outsider hopes rules she/he wrote they'd like to see imposed on us.
>
>
>> It seems to me that it would have been better had this CoC
>> had more outside review and possibly a draft period where the project
>> asked for community feedback.
>
> ** A draft & period for comment should have been mandatory,
> omiting it suggests arrogance or incompetence.
>
>
>> IMHO it's not too late to go down those
>> paths but we need to take a deep breath and consider that the intentions
>> of the CoC are only good;
>
> Maybe, or not,  See ** above.
>
>
>> that the project should be more welcoming for
>> everyone.  There's nothing wrong with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC,
>> even if it had flaws.
>
> I think legaly Foundation is not answerable to FreeBSD just to the
> few who founded the foundation.  Nothing wrong with FreeBSD rejecting
> an unwanted gift as incompetent waste of money - if they want.
>
>
>> It likely would need to help sponsor independent
>> reviews to weed out unneutral language.
>
> Whoever sprung this on FreeBSD community without warning should be admonished.
>
> FreeBSD Foundation could ask for a refund from the incompetent who
> wrote it, & Foundation in turn could refund those such as the person
> who asked "Can I have a refund".
>
The language and tone you are using only diminishes your voice, and
frankly violates any average or common sense CoC.  This was not done by
1 person or "outsider", it was done by a group of people and signed off
by core@ (as I understand it).  I think mistakes were made but attacking
everyone involved won't achieve any positive results.


--
Regards,
Bryan Drewery


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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Stephen Cook
In reply to this post by Bryan Drewery-6
On 2018-03-05 12:51, Bryan Drewery wrote:

> On 3/4/2018 5:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
>> [hidden email] wrote:
>>> Hi David,
>>>
>>> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. The
>>> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD
>>> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the
>>> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hopefully
>>> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns
>>> regarding the Code of Conduct.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Deb Goodkin
>>> Executive Director
>>> The FreeBSD Foundation
>>
>> Hi Deb,
>> Did the foundation pay for it ?
>
> The discussion needs to not demonize people or entities involved on
> either side.  It seems to me that it would have been better had this CoC
> had more outside review and possibly a draft period where the project
> asked for community feedback.  IMHO it's not too late to go down those
> paths but we need to take a deep breath and consider that the intentions
> of the CoC are only good; that the project should be more welcoming for
> everyone.  There's nothing wrong with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC,
> even if it had flaws.  It likely would need to help sponsor independent
> reviews to weed out unneutral language.

The problem with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC is that a small group
of extremists forced their way in to generate and implement their own
set of rules, secretly. I have seen it happen to other open source
projects, and other places in the world and on the internet. They are
specialists at being offended, and experts at milking money from
foundations and organizations to make sure those organizations properly
babysit their members so that nobody publicly insults said experts /
extremists or their chosen protected classes. They bully and intimidate
with threats of "outing" people as racist sexist etc, regardless of
whether it is true or not (they only want to shut up opposition, even if
is opposition to their tactics and not their cause). You think it was an
accident this was done behind closed doors? They know they cannot
survive the sunlight.

It doesn't matter if they are vaguely moving in the general direction of
a better society... their tactics make them pure evil, and I do not
support it. Sorry if this counts as "demonizing" or "othering" but I do
not stand by anyone who tries to insert themselves as the new master of
how I think and speak.

I suspect from the lack of response to my earlier question that I
accidentally paid for this when I thought I was donating to help develop
an OS. Future FreeBSD donations will now go somewhere else.


-- Stephen

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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Mark Linimon-2
On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 02:48:26PM -0500, Stephen Cook wrote:
> The problem with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC is that a small group
> of extremists forced their way in to generate and implement their own
> set of rules, secretly.

This is exactly not what happened.

> I suspect from the lack of response to my earlier question that I
> accidentally paid for this when I thought I was donating to help develop
> an OS.

An alternate explanation is that people are tired of going through every
sentence of every post about this, word by word, and trying to respond
in a way that cannot possibly be misconstrued.

tl:dr; your conclusion is wrong.

I myself have neither the time nor motivation to respond to every single
message on this subject; it's demotivating.  I suspect most of the posters
have already made up their minds, in any case.

mcl
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Stephen Cook
On 2018-03-05 15:51, Mark Linimon wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 02:48:26PM -0500, Stephen Cook wrote:
>> The problem with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC is that a small group
>> of extremists forced their way in to generate and implement their own
>> set of rules, secretly.
>
> This is exactly not what happened.

Points of view will differ. Last I heard, there was a debate over
whether it was appropriate or not to even have a CoC. Now it already
exists, and is very obviously written by SJWs.

>> I suspect from the lack of response to my earlier question that I
>> accidentally paid for this when I thought I was donating to help develop
>> an OS.
>
> An alternate explanation is that people are tired of going through every
> sentence of every post about this, word by word, and trying to respond
> in a way that cannot possibly be misconstrued.

I haven't seen many posts about this, maybe you mean in the secret
mailing list?

It is a simple yes or no question, did money donated to the foundation
pay these people to write this trash? I am not the first nor only one to
ask. There is nothing to misconstrue or dance around. I cannot find this
information on the site.

> tl:dr; your conclusion is wrong.

Some transparency would help people better understand what is going on.

> I myself have neither the time nor motivation to respond to every single
> message on this subject; it's demotivating.  I suspect most of the posters
> have already made up their minds, in any case.

But you had time and motivation to respond to mine... To say I am wrong
and that I do not deserve a response to my question, because everyone is
tired of defending themselves after dumping on the community for the
benefit of some activists.


-- Stephen

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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Julian H. Stacey-3
In reply to this post by Bryan Drewery-6
Hi, Reference:
> From: Bryan Drewery <[hidden email]>
> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 11:28:04 -0800

Bryan Drewery wrote:

> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
> --Dfb89j1723L9zFot341vqJ5ixcKpqkUga
> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AWPme4oYHHsk3S0wyJ5qq8uBNKGZido2m";
>  protected-headers="v1"
> From: Bryan Drewery <[hidden email]>
> To: "Julian H. Stacey" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem
> References: <[hidden email]>
> In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>
>
> --AWPme4oYHHsk3S0wyJ5qq8uBNKGZido2m
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> Content-Language: en-US
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> On 3/5/2018 11:09 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > Bryan Drewery wrote:
> >> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
> >> --oex5zYNtdOsHH7CGnZTm2mPFhuBKYldVo
> >> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyK=
> kOJvV1";
> >>  protected-headers=3D"v1"
> >> From: Bryan Drewery <[hidden email]>
> >> To: "Julian H. Stacey" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
> >> Cc: [hidden email]
> >> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> >> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem
> >> References: <[hidden email]>
> >> In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>
> >>
> >> --YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8
> >> Content-Language: en-US
> >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>
> >> On 3/4/2018 5:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> >>> [hidden email] wrote:
> >>>> Hi David,
> >>>>
> >>>> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. =
> Th=3D
> >> e
> >>>> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD
> >>>> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the
> >>>> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can ho=
> pe=3D
> >> fully
> >>>> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns
> >>>> regarding the Code of Conduct.=3D20
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>
> >>>> Deb Goodkin
> >>>> Executive Director
> >>>> The FreeBSD Foundation
> >>> =3D20
> >>> Hi Deb,
> >>> Did the foundation pay for it ?=3D20
> >>
> >> The discussion needs to not demonize people or entities involved on
> >> either side.
> >=20
> > FreeBSD are at liberty to reject a non FreeBSD outsider who wrote this
> > especially if they were paid to write it, even more so if the paid
> > outsider hopes rules she/he wrote they'd like to see imposed on us.
> >=20
> >=20
> >> It seems to me that it would have been better had this CoC
> >> had more outside review and possibly a draft period where the project
> >> asked for community feedback.
> >=20
> > ** A draft & period for comment should have been mandatory,
> > omiting it suggests arrogance or incompetence.
> >=20
> >=20
> >> IMHO it's not too late to go down those
> >> paths but we need to take a deep breath and consider that the intentio=
> ns
> >> of the CoC are only good;
> >=20
> > Maybe, or not,  See ** above.
> >=20
> >=20
> >> that the project should be more welcoming for
> >> everyone.  There's nothing wrong with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC,=
>
> >> even if it had flaws.
> >=20
> > I think legaly Foundation is not answerable to FreeBSD just to the
> > few who founded the foundation.  Nothing wrong with FreeBSD rejecting
> > an unwanted gift as incompetent waste of money - if they want.
> >=20
> >=20
> >> It likely would need to help sponsor independent
> >> reviews to weed out unneutral language.
> >=20
> > Whoever sprung this on FreeBSD community without warning should be admo=
> nished.
> >=20
> > FreeBSD Foundation could ask for a refund from the incompetent who
> > wrote it, & Foundation in turn could refund those such as the person
> > who asked "Can I have a refund".
> >=20
>
> The language and tone you are using only diminishes your voice, and
> frankly violates any average or common sense CoC.  This was not done by
> 1 person or "outsider", it was done by a group of people and signed off
> by core@ (as I understand it).  I think mistakes were made but attacking
> everyone involved won't achieve any positive results.

Read https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html 
  It's a mess of some sense & some ridiculous, force fed to FreeBSD.
  Expect some not to like force feeding, or proponents thereof.
  Expect forceful opposition to force feeding.

We're waiting for Deb to say if Foundation paid for CoC ?

If so, it would be nice if FreeBSD Foundation got a refund for CoC
& spent it on a a student janitor to clear up years old send-pr's.
I agree with the other person's thoughts that FreeBSD fixes uncommited
for years destroys incentive to file more fixes.

An example from 2014 (not mine, though I have or had some too,
gets too boring to keep track for ever, years on end)
  ftp://ctm.berklix.org/pub/FreeBSD/development/CTM/svn-cur/patch-for-ctm-v09
  16221 Nov 15  2014
I resubmitted it recently
  https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/ctm-users/2018-February/000519.html
  https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=159665

PS Bryan I suggest fix your mailer to not emit quoted printable =20 noise.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich
 Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU.
 UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3.
  Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Randi Harper-3
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Julian H. Stacey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Read https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html
>   It's a mess of some sense & some ridiculous, force fed to FreeBSD.
>   Expect some not to like force feeding, or proponents thereof.
>   Expect forceful opposition to force feeding.
>
> We're waiting for Deb to say if Foundation paid for CoC ?
>
> If so, it would be nice if FreeBSD Foundation got a refund for CoC
> & spent it on a a student janitor to clear up years old send-pr's.
> I agree with the other person's thoughts that FreeBSD fixes uncommited
> for years destroys incentive to file more fixes.
>
>
>
You know, a lot of things happen in FreeBSD that I don't give a flying fuck
about. Research and code is done around hardware and tools that I'll never
use, because they don't fit my needs - and that's ok. Generally speaking,
despite everything, I generally trust that the FreeBSD Foundation and
FreeBSD Core both have the project's health and growth as their top
priority. That trust is important, because I'm just a person with my own
singular set of experiences and priorities, and I can't know everything
that's happening in FreeBSD all the time or make a good judgement call as
to what's needed that fits outside of my own focus.

I don't complain when donated money is used on tech that I'll never use.
This isn't any different. If you think that managing your community should
take less of a priority than managing code, then you might want to sit back
and think for a bit about why the Foundation and Core would bother with
this CoC.

If you disagree with the priorities of the project or the foundation, you
can always make it your goal to get into a position where you are the one
making those decisions. Although I expect that with the amount of
experience and time required, by the time this was achieved, you probably
would have changed your mind about a few things.

I also don't generally advise going to someone on the Foundation and
demanding that they provide receipts, especially when CC:ing a mailing
list. It's not a good look for you or anyone.

Conversations about PRs are great to have. Yes, there's a lot of
maintenance work that needs to be done. But tying that to complaining about
a CoC is disingenuous at best.
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Mark Linimon-2
In reply to this post by Julian H. Stacey-3
On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 11:46:59PM +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> I agree with the other person's thoughts that FreeBSD fixes uncommited
> for years destroys incentive to file more fixes.

I do not know anyone who disagrees with this.

The issue is how to get people involved with this utterly thankless task.

And, even if the backlog were to suddenly disappear, we still get more
PRs per day than we can effectively handle.

One person is not going to be enough to fix this -- and I know, because
in the past, I've tried being that one person.

> If so, it would be nice if FreeBSD Foundation got a refund for CoC
> & spent it on a a student janitor to clear up years old send-pr's.

There is a false equivalence here, that time spent on the CoC somehow
took time away from working on PRs.  I don't detect much overlap between
the people that work on the one, vs. the other.

mcl
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Mark Linimon-2
In reply to this post by Stephen Cook
On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 05:17:59PM -0500, Stephen Cook wrote:
> On 2018-03-05 15:51, Mark Linimon wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 02:48:26PM -0500, Stephen Cook wrote:
> >> The problem with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC is that a small group
> >> of extremists forced their way in to generate and implement their own
> >> set of rules, secretly.
> >
> > This is exactly not what happened.
>
> Points of view will differ.

From the emails I have read, the core@ group convened an outreach
committee to draft the CoC.  No one "forced their way in".

Clearly from all the blowback, there is no way to debate the wording of
something like this in a group of thousands of people.  There has to be
a subset.  That's just human nature.  Otherwise, nothing ever gets done.

> > An alternate explanation is that people are tired of going through every
> > sentence of every post about this, word by word, and trying to respond
> > in a way that cannot possibly be misconstrued.
>
> I haven't seen many posts about this, maybe you mean in the secret
> mailing list?

I don't read all the FreeBSD mailing lists (I was surprised to find myself
on advocacy@), so I have no idea where all the discussions are taking place,
including the original question you asked.

fwiw, I do not represent the Project, and thus ...

> There is nothing to misconstrue or dance around. I cannot find this
> information on the site.

... I can say I have no idea.

> Some transparency would help people better understand what is going on.
>
> > I myself have neither the time nor motivation to respond to every single
> > message on this subject; it's demotivating.  I suspect most of the posters
> > have already made up their minds, in any case.
>
> But you had time and motivation to respond to mine...

Yes, despite knowing that I was wasting the first, and eroding the second.

> to say I am wrong and that I do not deserve a response to my question

I didn't say you did not deserve a response to your question.  This is
what I meant earlier about having every word scrutinized.

But I'm just wasting electrons, now.

mcl
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Julian H. Stacey-3
In reply to this post by Mark Linimon-2
Mark Linimon wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 11:46:59PM +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > I agree with the other person's thoughts that FreeBSD fixes uncommited
> > for years destroys incentive to file more fixes.
>
> I do not know anyone who disagrees with this.
>
> The issue is how to get people involved with this utterly thankless task.
>
> And, even if the backlog were to suddenly disappear, we still get more
> PRs per day than we can effectively handle.
>
> One person is not going to be enough to fix this -- and I know, because
> in the past, I've tried being that one person.
>
> > If so, it would be nice if FreeBSD Foundation got a refund for CoC
> > & spent it on a a student janitor to clear up years old send-pr's.
>
> There is a false equivalence here, that time spent on the CoC somehow
> took time away from working on PRs.  I don't detect much overlap between
> the people that work on the one, vs. the other.
>
> mcl

Yes, little overlap in skill sets, just money. A non tech paid for
the easy job of writing a CoC couldn't do send-pr clearance, though
many a FreeBSD user could write a CoC unpaid, without the bad bits.

Send-pr clearance is much larger, harder, unattractive compared to text or
code creation.  Commercial companies get unattractive jobs done using Money.
FreeBSD Foundation won't have enough money for much send-pr (esp.  if things
like CoC are paid, increasing costs and reducing contributions).

The Foundation could treat each send-pr cleared like a lottery ticket:
each month some randomised bug clearers would get an unexpected bonus.
Bonus winners advertised monthly on FreeBSD media, encouraging more bug
clearance & more donations to fund it.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich
 Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU.
 UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3.
  Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

Julian Zottl
So I'll ask a stupid question: Why not base it off of the millions of CoC's
already out there?
https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html
is a good start.  Yes, it's a commercial company, but it could easily be
modified.

The CoC as it stands is ridiculous.  Here is my contribution to helping.
Don't call out inclusion, it should naturally happen with an open CoC. I
like the KISS method of working.


We want the FreeBSD Project to be a venue where people can work together to
make the best operating system, built by a strong community. These values
extend beyond just development to all aspects of the Project.

This code applies equally to everyone representing the FreeBSD Project in
any way, from new members, to committers, to the core team itself. These
rules are intended to ensure everyone feels welcome both working within,
and interacting with, the Project. This document is a guide to make it
easier to enrich all of us and the technical communities in which we
participate.

This code of conduct applies to all spaces used by the FreeBSD Project,
including our mailing lists, IRC channels, and social media, both online
and off. Anyone who is found to violate this code of conduct may be
sanctioned or expelled from FreeBSD Project controlled spaces at the
discretion of the FreeBSD Code of Conduct Committee.

Some FreeBSD Project spaces may have additional rules in place, which will
be made clearly available to participants. Participants are responsible for
knowing and abiding by these rules.

*Rules:*

*Do no Evil* - Follow the law, acting honorably, and treating co-workers
with courtesy and respect. Recognize that everything we do in connection
with FreeBSD will be, and should be, measured against the highest possible
standards of ethical conduct.

*No Retaliation* - FreeBSD prohibits retaliation against any person who
reports or participates in an investigation of a possible violation of our
Code, policies, or the law. If you believe you are being retaliated
against, please contact Ethics & Compliance.

*Serve Our Users* - Our users value FreeBSD not only because we deliver a
great Operating System, but because we hold ourselves to a higher standard
in how we treat users and operate more generally. Keeping the following
principles in mind will help us to maintain that high standard:

·   *Integrity* - Our reputation as a community that our users can trust is
our most valuable asset, and it is up to all of us to make sure that we
continually earn that trust. All of our communications and other
interactions with our users should increase their trust in us.

·   *Usefulness* - Our Operating System should be useful for all our users.
We have many different types of users, from individuals to large
businesses, but one guiding principle: “Is what we are offering useful?”

·   *Freedom of Expression* - FreeBSD is committed to advancing privacy and
freedom of expression for our users around the world. Where user privacy
and freedom of expression face government challenges, we seek to implement
internationally recognized standards that respect those rights as we
develop products, do business in diverse markets, and respond to government
requests to access user information or remove user content. Contact Legal
or Ethics & Compliance if you have questions on implementing these
standards in connection with what you do with FreeBSD.

·   *Responsiveness* - Part of being useful and honest is being responsive:
We recognize relevant user feedback when we see it, and we do something
about it. We take pride in responding to communications from our users,
whether questions, problems, or compliments. If something is broken, fix it.

·   *Take Action* - Any time you feel our users aren’t being well-served,
don’t be bashful - let someone in the community know about it. Continually
improving our product takes all of us, and we’re proud that FreeBSD
champions our users and take the initiative to step forward when the
interests of our users are at stake.

*Equal Opportunity Community*

Bring a contributor to the FreeBSD community is based solely upon
individual merit and qualifications directly related to competence. We
strictly prohibit unlawful discrimination or harassment on the basis of
race, color, religion, veteran status, national origin, ancestry, pregnancy
status, sex, gender identity or expression, age, marital status, mental or
physical disability, medical condition, sexual orientation, or any other
characteristics protected by law. We also make all reasonable
accommodations to meet our obligations under laws protecting the rights of
the disabled.

*Harassment, Discrimination, and Bullying*

FreeBSD prohibits discrimination, harassment and bullying in any form –
verbal, physical, or visual If you believe you’ve been bullied or harassed
by anyone at FreeBSD, or in the community, we strongly encourage you to
immediately report the incident contact to the FreeBSD Ethics & Compliance
group.

*Conclusion*

FreeBSD aspires to be a different kind of community. It’s impossible to
spell out every possible ethical scenario we might face. Instead, we rely
on one another’s good judgment to uphold a high standard of integrity for
ourselves and our company. We expect all FreeBSD’ers to be guided by both
the letter and the spirit of this Code. Sometimes, identifying the right
thing to do isn’t an easy call. If you aren’t sure, don’t be afraid to ask
questions of the FreeBSD Ethics & Compliance group.

And remember… don’t be evil, and if you see something that you think isn’t
right – speak up!

Not really that hard, eh?
----
Julian

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 6:44 AM, Julian H. Stacey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mark Linimon wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 11:46:59PM +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > I agree with the other person's thoughts that FreeBSD fixes uncommited
> > > for years destroys incentive to file more fixes.
> >
> > I do not know anyone who disagrees with this.
> >
> > The issue is how to get people involved with this utterly thankless task.
> >
> > And, even if the backlog were to suddenly disappear, we still get more
> > PRs per day than we can effectively handle.
> >
> > One person is not going to be enough to fix this -- and I know, because
> > in the past, I've tried being that one person.
> >
> > > If so, it would be nice if FreeBSD Foundation got a refund for CoC
> > > & spent it on a a student janitor to clear up years old send-pr's.
> >
> > There is a false equivalence here, that time spent on the CoC somehow
> > took time away from working on PRs.  I don't detect much overlap between
> > the people that work on the one, vs. the other.
> >
> > mcl
>
> Yes, little overlap in skill sets, just money. A non tech paid for
> the easy job of writing a CoC couldn't do send-pr clearance, though
> many a FreeBSD user could write a CoC unpaid, without the bad bits.
>
> Send-pr clearance is much larger, harder, unattractive compared to text or
> code creation.  Commercial companies get unattractive jobs done using
> Money.
> FreeBSD Foundation won't have enough money for much send-pr (esp.  if
> things
> like CoC are paid, increasing costs and reducing contributions).
>
> The Foundation could treat each send-pr cleared like a lottery ticket:
> each month some randomised bug clearers would get an unexpected bonus.
> Bonus winners advertised monthly on FreeBSD media, encouraging more bug
> clearance & more donations to fund it.
>
> Cheers,
> Julian
> --
> Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix,
> Munich
>  Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU.
>  UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3.
>                 Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]
> "
>
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