Livelock on recent current

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Livelock on recent current

Kevin Oberman-4
I am seeing a problem since I moved to current on my laptop this week. It's
odd as it is linked to the keyboard. As long as the keyboard is active,
everything is fine, but if the keyboard is not used, after a few minutes,
it locks up and gets very hot. The system may be busy or idle. The system
seems completely locked. It does not respond in the network and the
display, X or just vt is frozen. The only factor is use of the keyboard.

I'm not sure what information I might collect.

The system is a ThinkPad L15 with 4GN of DRAMM (more on order) .
FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT #2 r365481M: Tue Sep  8 20:16:02 PDT 2020
    root@ptavv:/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/GENERIC-NODEBUG amd64
FreeBSD ptavv 13.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT #2 r365481M: Tue Sep  8
20:16:02 PDT 2020
root@ptavv:/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/GENERIC-NODEBUG
 amd64
Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-10210U CPU (Crystal Lake)
--
Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer
E-mail: [hidden email]
PGP Fingerprint: D03FB98AFA78E3B78C1694B318AB39EF1B055683
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Re: Livelock on recent current

Thomas Mueller-4
> I am seeing a problem since I moved to current on my laptop this week. It's
> odd as it is linked to the keyboard. As long as the keyboard is active,
> everything is fine, but if the keyboard is not used, after a few minutes,
> it locks up and gets very hot. The system may be busy or idle. The system
> seems completely locked. It does not respond in the network and the
> display, X or just vt is frozen. The only factor is use of the keyboard.
       
> I'm not sure what information I might collect.
 
> The system is a ThinkPad L15 with 4GN of DRAMM (more on order) .
> FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT #2 r365481M: Tue Sep  8 20:16:02 PDT 2020
>     root@ptavv:/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/GENERIC-NODEBUG amd64
> FreeBSD ptavv 13.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT #2 r365481M: Tue Sep  8
20:16:02 PDT 2020
> root@ptavv:/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/GENERIC-NODEBUG
 amd64
> Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-10210U CPU (Crystal Lake)

> Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer

Overheating, maybe?

I can see CPU temperature with "envstat" (NetBSD) or
sysctl -a | grep "temperature" (FreeBSD) :
don't know how Linux does it.

Is there any way you could run
sysctl -a | grep "temperature"
at one- or two-minute intervals, perhaps on a different virtual terminal?

I've heard of laptops getting hot, but that was not specifically connected to keyboard inactivity.

Tom

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Re: Livelock on recent current

Jan Kokemüller
In reply to this post by Kevin Oberman-4

On 09.09.20 06:18, Kevin Oberman wrote:
> I am seeing a problem since I moved to current on my laptop this week. It's
> odd as it is linked to the keyboard. As long as the keyboard is active,
> everything is fine, but if the keyboard is not used, after a few minutes,
> it locks up and gets very hot. The system may be busy or idle. The system
> seems completely locked. It does not respond in the network and the
> display, X or just vt is frozen. The only factor is use of the keyboard.

Reminds me of this bug:

https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=225341

I've been experiencing similar hangs when that timer in atkbd is
enabled. It doesn't seem to happen in the default keyboard
configuration, though.

-Jan
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Re: Livelock on recent current

Kevin Oberman-4
In reply to this post by Kevin Oberman-4
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 3:01 AM Thomas Mueller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > I am seeing a problem since I moved to current on my laptop this week.
> It's
> > odd as it is linked to the keyboard. As long as the keyboard is active,
> > everything is fine, but if the keyboard is not used, after a few minutes,
> > it locks up and gets very hot. The system may be busy or idle. The system
> > seems completely locked. It does not respond in the network and the
> > display, X or just vt is frozen. The only factor is use of the keyboard.
>
> > I'm not sure what information I might collect.
>
> > The system is a ThinkPad L15 with 4GN of DRAMM (more on order) .
> > FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT #2 r365481M: Tue Sep  8 20:16:02 PDT 2020
> >     root@ptavv:/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/GENERIC-NODEBUG amd64
> > FreeBSD ptavv 13.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT #2 r365481M: Tue Sep  8
> 20:16:02 PDT 2020
> > root@ptavv:/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/GENERIC-NODEBUG
>  amd64
> > Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-10210U CPU (Crystal Lake)
>
> > Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer
>
> Overheating, maybe?
>
> I can see CPU temperature with "envstat" (NetBSD) or
> sysctl -a | grep "temperature" (FreeBSD) :
> don't know how Linux does it.
>
> Is there any way you could run
> sysctl -a | grep "temperature"
> at one- or two-minute intervals, perhaps on a different virtual terminal?
>
> I've heard of laptops getting hot, but that was not specifically connected
> to keyboard inactivity.
>
> Tom
>
On FreeBSD on Intel, just load coretemp.ko and it's in
dev.cpu.?.temperature, where ? is the CPU. When running my desktop, I have
it continuously displayed with the gkrellm2 system display. Since it will
fail when the system is idle, I don't think it gets hot until after the
lock-up, but I'll confirm it when I get back to that system later today.
--
Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer
E-mail: [hidden email]
PGP Fingerprint: D03FB98AFA78E3B78C1694B318AB39EF1B055683
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RE: Livelock on recent current

driesm.michiels
In reply to this post by Jan Kokemüller
> On 09.09.20 06:18, Kevin Oberman wrote:
> > I am seeing a problem since I moved to current on my laptop this week.
> > It's odd as it is linked to the keyboard. As long as the keyboard is
> > active, everything is fine, but if the keyboard is not used, after a
> > few minutes, it locks up and gets very hot. The system may be busy or
> > idle. The system seems completely locked. It does not respond in the
> > network and the display, X or just vt is frozen. The only factor is use
of the
> keyboard.

I'm actually very happy someone else ran into this too! I have a Lenovo T490
(azerty edition, yeah I known ...)
I found it incredible hard to describe, but i have the exact same problem.
I categorized it as "random system freezes", but now that you say its
related to keyboard interaction it makes sense when I observe the lock.

System locks up when it happens and the fan ramps up AFTER the dead lock.
I'm pretty sure the getting "hot" symptom is caused by the deadlock and not
a symptom of the deadlock.

>
> Reminds me of this bug:
>
> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=225341

I am also using a non default keyboard layout, as described in the bug
above.
I'll probably try the patch in the coming weekend to see if it helps.

>
> I've been experiencing similar hangs when that timer in atkbd is enabled.
It
> doesn't seem to happen in the default keyboard configuration, though.
>
> -Jan
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"

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RE: Livelock on recent current

driesm.michiels
> > On 09.09.20 06:18, Kevin Oberman wrote:
> > > I am seeing a problem since I moved to current on my laptop this week.
> > > It's odd as it is linked to the keyboard. As long as the keyboard is
> > > active, everything is fine, but if the keyboard is not used, after a
> > > few minutes, it locks up and gets very hot. The system may be busy
> > > or idle. The system seems completely locked. It does not respond in
> > > the network and the display, X or just vt is frozen. The only factor
> > > is use
> of the
> > keyboard.
>
> I'm actually very happy someone else ran into this too! I have a Lenovo
T490
> (azerty edition, yeah I known ...) I found it incredible hard to describe,
but i
> have the exact same problem.
> I categorized it as "random system freezes", but now that you say its
related to
> keyboard interaction it makes sense when I observe the lock.
>
> System locks up when it happens and the fan ramps up AFTER the dead lock.
> I'm pretty sure the getting "hot" symptom is caused by the deadlock and
not a
> symptom of the deadlock.

Maybe a very important factor, the issue is not present in STABLE-12, I
downgraded previous week to verify this.

>
> >
> > Reminds me of this bug:
> >
> > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=225341
>
> I am also using a non default keyboard layout, as described in the bug
above.
> I'll probably try the patch in the coming weekend to see if it helps.
>
> >
> > I've been experiencing similar hangs when that timer in atkbd is
enabled.
> It
> > doesn't seem to happen in the default keyboard configuration, though.
> >
> > -Jan
> > _______________________________________________
> > [hidden email] mailing list
> > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to
"[hidden email]"


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Re: Livelock on recent current

Kevin Oberman-4
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 1:01 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > > On 09.09.20 06:18, Kevin Oberman wrote:
> > > > I am seeing a problem since I moved to current on my laptop this
> week.
> > > > It's odd as it is linked to the keyboard. As long as the keyboard is
> > > > active, everything is fine, but if the keyboard is not used, after a
> > > > few minutes, it locks up and gets very hot. The system may be busy
> > > > or idle. The system seems completely locked. It does not respond in
> > > > the network and the display, X or just vt is frozen. The only factor
> > > > is use
> > of the
> > > keyboard.
> >
> > I'm actually very happy someone else ran into this too! I have a Lenovo
> T490
> > (azerty edition, yeah I known ...) I found it incredible hard to
> describe,
> but i
> > have the exact same problem.
> > I categorized it as "random system freezes", but now that you say its
> related to
> > keyboard interaction it makes sense when I observe the lock.
> >
> > System locks up when it happens and the fan ramps up AFTER the dead lock.
> > I'm pretty sure the getting "hot" symptom is caused by the deadlock and
> not a
> > symptom of the deadlock.
>
> Maybe a very important factor, the issue is not present in STABLE-12, I
> downgraded previous week to verify this.
>
> >
> > >
> > > Reminds me of this bug:
> > >
> > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=225341
> >
> > I am also using a non default keyboard layout, as described in the bug
> above.
> > I'll probably try the patch in the coming weekend to see if it helps.
> >
> > >
> > > I've been experiencing similar hangs when that timer in atkbd is
> enabled.
> > It
> > > doesn't seem to happen in the default keyboard configuration, though.
> > >
> > > -Jan


I'm happy to see that I am not crazy!

This is mostly anecdotal. The freezes have occurred regularly, without
question, but the details are not statistically verified. This is based on
my perceptions. The only things I am really sure of is that the system is
unusable on head and runs well on 12.1-Release. This system has a rather
new Intel GPU, the Comet Lake, and is only supported on head with
drm-devel-kmod, so moving back to 12.1 is not an option. I am curious what
processor is on the T490. I am using the default keyboard layout.
On terminal sessions (vt), when the keyboard is idle. I have had the system
run for a couple of hours or longer with no problems. To get bigger ports
to build, I usually switch to another vty and keep that one fairly busy. It
will freeze when no vty is active, but as long as any is active every
minute or less. I have had freezes in under a minute, but rarely.

Moving on to other possibly related (or not) issues:
When running on X (MATE), it may freeze whether the keyboard is active or
not. OTOH, it seems to freeze less often. I've had X lock up mid-word but
also run for 15 or more minutes. It eventually does freeze, but I don't
think I've ever gone more than 10 minutes on an idle keyboard without a
freeze without X running.

Switching to a vty and keeping it fairly active still seems to keep the
system alive while X is being used. X is performing very poorly. If the
processors are busy, say by building a port, screen updates are very slow,
often pausing for several seconds. Expose events seem to often redraw all
windows which is very annoying. Several times I thought the system was
frozen only to suddenly have the screen update and everything be normal,
again.
--
Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer
E-mail: [hidden email]
PGP Fingerprint: D03FB98AFA78E3B78C1694B318AB39EF1B055683
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