Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Robert Clausecker
I request that ed(4) be kept as well as that's the driver for NE2000
compatible cards, the most common kind of ethernet card for the ISA bus.
In case anybody wants to run FreeBSD on a system with just an ISA bus,
this kind of card would be the easiest way to get networking to work.

It's also a commonly emulated card by virtual machines, e.g. by QEMU.

Yours,
Robert Clausecker

On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote:

> >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
>
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
>
> The criteria for exception are:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>    support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>    - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>      deemed satisfy the "popular"
>      requirement.
>  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
>
> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.
>
> The full FCP-0101 is included below.
>
> -- Brooks
>
> ---
> authors: Brooks Davis <[hidden email]>
> state: feedback
> ---
>
> # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers
>
> Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
> FreeBSD 13.
>
> ## Problem Statement
>
> Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
> improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
> 32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
> NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
> interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
> iflib, but each additional driver takes work.
>
> 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
> and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
> are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
> removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.
>
> For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
> systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
> machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
> retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
> removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
> drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
> 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).
>
> ## Proposed Solution
>
> We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> will entail:
>  - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
>  - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
>    attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
>    to FreeBSD 12.
>  - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
>    freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
>  - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
>    devices.
>
> Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
> list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
> the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>    support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>    - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>      deemed satisfy the "popular"
>      requirement.
>  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
>
> ### Exceptions to removal
>
> Device | Reason
> -------|-------------------------------------------------
> ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
> fxp    | Popular device long recommended by the project.
> dc     | Popular device for CardBus card.
> hme    | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
> le     | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
> sis    | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641.
> vr     | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards.
> xl     | Popular device for CardBus card.
>
> Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round.
>
> ### Device to be removed
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> ## Final Disposition
>
> TBD



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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Jakub Lach
I request to keep rl(4) as it's the standard ethernet card in PIII era PCs.
Moreover, it's emulated by QEMU too.



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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
Do you have any machines running FreeBSD 12.0 with this interface? The
requirement is that we have at least 5 real users of the interface on
FreeBSD 12.

Many of the P III era PCs aren't beefy enough to run FreeBSD very well
(specifically, they typically lack adequate memory).

QEMU also emulates newer NICs, so you wouldn't be left w/o a solution. The
NE-2000 is still supported, as well E1000 (em/igb) interfaces.

Warner

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 5:36 PM Jakub Lach <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I request to keep rl(4) as it's the standard ethernet card in PIII era PCs.
> Moreover, it's emulated by QEMU too.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-arch-f4152488.html
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
>
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 3:54 PM Robert Clausecker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I request that ed(4)


How many FreeBSD 12.0 machines do you have running with this interface?

QEMU does support this interface, but also supports the Intel E1000 series
(em/igb), so it's not necessarily needed for QEMU.

Warner
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RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Cy Schubert-4
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
I have a laptop (used for i386 testing) with that NIC. The plan is to move rl(4) to ports until I no longer need to test i386 on real hardware.

Will this help?

---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.

Cy Schubert
<[hidden email]> or <[hidden email]>
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
---

-----Original Message-----
From: Warner Losh
Sent: 03/10/2018 16:45
To: Jakub Lach
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Do you have any machines running FreeBSD 12.0 with this interface? The
requirement is that we have at least 5 real users of the interface on
FreeBSD 12.

Many of the P III era PCs aren't beefy enough to run FreeBSD very well
(specifically, they typically lack adequate memory).

QEMU also emulates newer NICs, so you wouldn't be left w/o a solution. The
NE-2000 is still supported, as well E1000 (em/igb) interfaces.

Warner

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 5:36 PM Jakub Lach <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I request to keep rl(4) as it's the standard ethernet card in PIII era PCs.
> Moreover, it's emulated by QEMU too.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-arch-f4152488.html
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
>
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're
running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right?

Warner

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:01 PM Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I have a laptop (used for i386 testing) with that NIC. The plan is to move
> rl(4) to ports until I no longer need to test i386 on real hardware.
>
> Will this help?
>
> ---
> Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
> Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
> Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.
>
> Cy Schubert
> <[hidden email]> or <[hidden email]>
> The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
> ---
> ------------------------------
> From: Warner Losh
> Sent: 03/10/2018 16:45
> To: Jakub Lach
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
>
> Do you have any machines running FreeBSD 12.0 with this interface? The
> requirement is that we have at least 5 real users of the interface on
> FreeBSD 12.
>
> Many of the P III era PCs aren't beefy enough to run FreeBSD very well
> (specifically, they typically lack adequate memory).
>
> QEMU also emulates newer NICs, so you wouldn't be left w/o a solution. The
> NE-2000 is still supported, as well E1000 (em/igb) interfaces.
>
> Warner
>
> On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 5:36 PM Jakub Lach <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I request to keep rl(4) as it's the standard ethernet card in PIII era
> PCs.
> > Moreover, it's emulated by QEMU too.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from:
> http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-arch-f4152488.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > [hidden email] mailing list
> > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
> >
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
>
>
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RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Cy Schubert-4
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
Yup.

---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.

Cy Schubert
<[hidden email]> or <[hidden email]>
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
---

-----Original Message-----
From: Warner Losh
Sent: 03/10/2018 17:11
To: Cy Schubert
Cc: Jakub Lach; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right?



Warner



On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:01 PM Cy Schubert <[hidden email]> wrote:





I have a laptop (used for i386 testing) with that NIC. The plan is to move rl(4) to ports until I no longer need to test i386 on real hardware.

Will this help?

---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.

Cy Schubert
<[hidden email]> or <[hidden email]>
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
---



From: Warner Losh
Sent: 03/10/2018 16:45
To: Jakub Lach
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Do you have any machines running FreeBSD 12.0 with this interface? The
requirement is that we have at least 5 real users of the interface on
FreeBSD 12.

Many of the P III era PCs aren't beefy enough to run FreeBSD very well
(specifically, they typically lack adequate memory).

QEMU also emulates newer NICs, so you wouldn't be left w/o a solution. The
NE-2000 is still supported, as well E1000 (em/igb) interfaces.

Warner

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 5:36 PM Jakub Lach <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I request to keep rl(4) as it's the standard ethernet card in PIII era PCs.
> Moreover, it's emulated by QEMU too.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-arch-f4152488.html
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Rick Macklem
In reply to this post by Warner Losh
Warner Losh wrote:

>Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're
>running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right?
>
>Warner
>
>On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:01 PM Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>> I have a laptop (used for i386 testing) with that NIC. The plan is to move
>> rl(4) to ports until I no longer need to test i386 on real hardware.
>>
>> Will this help?
My main development machine has a bfe in it, so I will definitely be
keeping a driver for it going. I don't care if it goes away from head/current.
(I can leave the driver somewhere for anyone else that wants it, although
 I'm not  a ports guy, so someone else would have to put it in ports.)
The other box I run FreeBSD on is an fxp, so I'll be doing the same for it, if/when it gets deleted. I find these machines work fine, but I don't do ZFS.
[stuff snipped]

rick

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Jakub Lach
In reply to this post by Warner Losh
Thanks for all replies.

I personally have one PIII-S system somewhere, as this CPU was relatively
popular in certain applications, others might want to use it still.
Regarding memory that's quite true of typical setup at the time, but Intel
440BX can use 1024MB, which should be ok.

I would certainly like to update this system to something more recent time
permitting, though I admit it has already felt behind and haven't seen
anything like 11-STABLE or 12.



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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Cy Schubert-4
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
In message <[hidden email]
PRD01.P
ROD.OUTLOOK.COM>, Rick Macklem writes:

> Warner Losh wrote:
> >Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're
> >running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right?
> >
> >Warner
> >
> >On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:01 PM Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I have a laptop (used for i386 testing) with that NIC. The plan is to move
> >> rl(4) to ports until I no longer need to test i386 on real hardware.
> >>
> >> Will this help?
> My main development machine has a bfe in it, so I will definitely be
> keeping a driver for it going. I don't care if it goes away from head/current
> .
> (I can leave the driver somewhere for anyone else that wants it, although
>  I'm not  a ports guy, so someone else would have to put it in ports.)
> The other box I run FreeBSD on is an fxp, so I'll be doing the same for it, i
> f/when it gets deleted. I find these machines work fine, but I don't do ZFS.
> [stuff snipped]

Ahh, the old laptop used for i386 testing has had ZFS on it since I got
it. Initially with only 768 MB RAM. It was the the one talked about in
the ZFS tuning wiki. It's got more RAM now, still with ZFS and no
special ZFS tuning except to reduce bshift to 13 and reduce the vdev
cache to 5 MB.

It'll probably become a hand-me-down for the grandkids when I teach
them programming. Junior committers, hopefully. I'm sure they'll want
something newer shortly later.


--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
FreeBSD UNIX:  <[hidden email]>   Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org

        The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.


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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Rodney W. Grimes-4
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
> >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting

Since when did a FCP become a core only process????  Why was this
dicussed within core and not within the larger community?

> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.

I am going to strongly object to the whole thing,
as this is NOT how the FCP process is suppose to work it
is not for core to dictate this type of policy to
the developers.

> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
>
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
>
> The criteria for exception are:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>    support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>    - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>      deemed satisfy the "popular"
>      requirement.
>  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
>
> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.
>
> The full FCP-0101 is included below.
>
> -- Brooks
>
> ---
> authors: Brooks Davis <[hidden email]>
> state: feedback
> ---
>
> # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers
>
> Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
> FreeBSD 13.
>
> ## Problem Statement
>
> Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
> improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
> 32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
> NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
> interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
> iflib, but each additional driver takes work.
>
> 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
> and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
> are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
> removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.
>
> For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
> systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
> machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
> retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
> removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
> drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
> 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).
>
> ## Proposed Solution
>
> We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> will entail:
>  - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
>  - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
>    attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
>    to FreeBSD 12.
>  - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
>    freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
>  - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
>    devices.
>
> Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
> list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
> the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>    support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>    - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>      deemed satisfy the "popular"
>      requirement.
>  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
>
> ### Exceptions to removal
>
> Device | Reason
> -------|-------------------------------------------------
> ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
> fxp    | Popular device long recommended by the project.
> dc     | Popular device for CardBus card.
> hme    | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
> le     | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
> sis    | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641.
> vr     | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards.
> xl     | Popular device for CardBus card.
>
> Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round.
>
> ### Device to be removed
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> ## Final Disposition
>
> TBD
-- End of PGP section, PGP failed!

--
Rod Grimes                                                 [hidden email]
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 7:58 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> >
> > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> > improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> > core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
>
> Since when did a FCP become a core only process????  Why was this
> dicussed within core and not within the larger community?
>

Core hasn't approved this FCP, we're in the community discussion phase now.
If you have substantive comments, please comment. It's a proposal, and it's
being discussed now.


> > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> I am going to strongly object to the whole thing,
> as this is NOT how the FCP process is suppose to work it
> is not for core to dictate this type of policy to
> the developers.
>

We've just started the process. The FCP is a draft for discussion. Core
hasn't approved it, since there's no discussion to look at to weigh what
consensus might be and add whatever oversight we may need to. The
conversation has just started.

Warner


> > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> >
> > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> >
> > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
> >
> > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
> >
> > The criteria for exception are:
> >  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
> >    support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
> >    - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
> >      deemed satisfy the "popular"
> >      requirement.
> >  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform
> usable.
> >  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> >
> > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.
> >
> > The full FCP-0101 is included below.
> >
> > -- Brooks
> >
> > ---
> > authors: Brooks Davis <[hidden email]>
> > state: feedback
> > ---
> >
> > # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers
> >
> > Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
> > FreeBSD 13.
> >
> > ## Problem Statement
> >
> > Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
> > improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
> > 32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
> > NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
> > interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
> > iflib, but each additional driver takes work.
> >
> > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
> > and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
> > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
> > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.
> >
> > For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
> > systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
> > machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
> > retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
> > removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
> > drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
> > 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).
> >
> > ## Proposed Solution
> >
> > We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> > will entail:
> >  - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
> >  - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
> >    attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
> >    to FreeBSD 12.
> >  - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
> >    freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
> >  - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete
> deprecated
> >    devices.
> >
> > Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
> > list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
> > the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
> >  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
> >    support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
> >    - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
> >      deemed satisfy the "popular"
> >      requirement.
> >  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform
> usable.
> >  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> >
> > ### Exceptions to removal
> >
> > Device | Reason
> > -------|-------------------------------------------------
> > ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
> > fxp    | Popular device long recommended by the project.
> > dc     | Popular device for CardBus card.
> > hme    | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
> > le     | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
> > sis    | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641.
> > vr     | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards.
> > xl     | Popular device for CardBus card.
> >
> > Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round.
> >
> > ### Device to be removed
> >
> > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> >
> > ## Final Disposition
> >
> > TBD
> -- End of PGP section, PGP failed!
>
> --
> Rod Grimes
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
>
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Kim Shrier-2
In reply to this post by Warner Losh
On Oct 3, 2018, at 6:09 PM, Warner Losh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're
> running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right?
>

I am also using rl(4) on my home firewall machine.  Yes, it is built out of
ancient hardware but it works just fine.

Are we up to 3?

Kim
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Andy Farkas-3
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
On 04/10/2018 07:05, Brooks Davis wrote:

>>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
>
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
>

I do not see:

de0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
     ether 00:00:c0:bf:6a:e4
     inet 172.22.2.34 netmask 0xfffffff0 broadcast 172.22.2.47
     inet6 fe80::200:c0ff:febf:6ae4%de0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1
     nd6 options=23<PERFORMNUD,ACCEPT_RTADV,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
     media: Ethernet 10base2/BNC
     status: active

on the list.

FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE-p5 #0: Thu Jun 30 03:52:15 UTC 2016
(yes, a very old version, but you know.... if it ain't broke, don't fix it)

-andyf

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

A. Wilcox
In reply to this post by Kim Shrier-2
On 10/03/18 21:28, Kim Shrier wrote:

> On Oct 3, 2018, at 6:09 PM, Warner Losh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're
>> running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right?
>>
>
> I am also using rl(4) on my home firewall machine.  Yes, it is built out of
> ancient hardware but it works just fine.
>
> Are we up to 3?
>
> Kim

I have three machines left that run FreeBSD.  One has 1x hme (which
seems safe), one 2x rl (which hopefully may be safe), and the last has
1x pcn 1x ed (ouch!  this one probably will end up going to NetBSD).

They all run 11, only because none of them are up to the task of
building current.  Plans to upgrade to 12 over the US November holiday
times have already been made.

Funny enough, I've been looking at bringing up a FreeBSD machine or two
for PowerPC work, so that number may go up to four or five.  I believe
all my PowerPCs capable of booting FreeBSD have gigE, however, so no
issues are likely.

--arw


--
A. Wilcox (awilfox)
Open-source programmer (C, C++, Python)
https://code.foxkit.us/u/awilfox/


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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
In reply to this post by Andy Farkas-3
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 9:50 PM Andy Farkas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 04/10/2018 07:05, Brooks Davis wrote:
> >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> >
> > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> >
> > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
> >
> > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
> >
>
> I do not see:
>
> de0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
>      ether 00:00:c0:bf:6a:e4
>      inet 172.22.2.34 netmask 0xfffffff0 broadcast 172.22.2.47
>      inet6 fe80::200:c0ff:febf:6ae4%de0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1
>      nd6 options=23<PERFORMNUD,ACCEPT_RTADV,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
>      media: Ethernet 10base2/BNC
>      status: active
>
> on the list.
>
> FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE-p5 #0: Thu Jun 30 03:52:15 UTC 2016
> (yes, a very old version, but you know.... if it ain't broke, don't fix it)
>

Are you planning on upgrading?

de should have been on the list to go.... Its a fairly uncommon NIC....

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

A. Wilcox
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
On 10/03/18 16:05, Brooks Davis wrote:

> We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> will entail:
>  - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
>  - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
>    attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
>    to FreeBSD 12.
>  - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2019) Remind
>    freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
>  - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
>    devices.

[ ... ]


> For a device to be placed on
> the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:

[ ... ]

>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)


So, does that mean that the window for porting to iflib is between now
and January?  Or would the driver need to be ported before the FCP is
passed?

Sorry, just wondering for clarification's sake, since I have a pcn and
rl hanging around and if I have any free time I could potentially look
at porting, if that'd help.

--arw


--
A. Wilcox (awilfox)
Open-source programmer (C, C++, Python)
https://code.foxkit.us/u/awilfox/


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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Andy Farkas-3
In reply to this post by Warner Losh
On 04/10/2018 13:54, Warner Losh wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 9:50 PM Andy Farkas <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On 04/10/2018 07:05, Brooks Davis wrote:
>     >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>     > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>     >
>     > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
>     > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>     >
>     > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
>     >
>     > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
>     >
>
>     I do not see:
>
>     de0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0
>     mtu 1500
>          ether 00:00:c0:bf:6a:e4
>          inet 172.22.2.34 netmask 0xfffffff0 broadcast 172.22.2.47
>          inet6 fe80::200:c0ff:febf:6ae4%de0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1
>          nd6 options=23<PERFORMNUD,ACCEPT_RTADV,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
>          media: Ethernet 10base2/BNC
>          status: active
>
>     on the list.
>
>     FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE-p5 #0: Thu Jun 30 03:52:15 UTC 2016
>     (yes, a very old version, but you know.... if it ain't broke,
>     don't fix it)
>
>
> Are you planning on upgrading?
>
> de should have been on the list to go.... Its a fairly uncommon NIC....
>
>

I guess I won't be upgrading. I tried, but PC-BSD won't update anymore.

I use this box to MOP boot my Vaxen, with tftp and bootparamd.

NetBSD is looking like the option for me.

-andyf

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
In reply to this post by A. Wilcox
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 10:05 PM A. Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So, does that mean that the window for porting to iflib is between now
> and January?  Or would the driver need to be ported before the FCP is
> passed?
>

I believe the notion was between now and the removal time.


> Sorry, just wondering for clarification's sake, since I have a pcn and
> rl hanging around and if I have any free time I could potentially look
> at porting, if that'd help.
>

That would be awesome.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Eugene Grosbein-10
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
04.10.2018 4:05, Brooks Davis wrote:

>>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
>
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl

"fxpl" should have been "fxp" here, I suppose.

While I have no objection for general direction, I have doubts about removal of ste(4) and especially rl(4).
These are cheap 100Mbit VERY popular NICs sold in enourmous values in certain markets
by vendors like D-Link and TP-Link using various trade names.

Lack of support for such popular 100M cards won't be good for FreeBSD, I suppose.

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