Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Joel Dahl-3
On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote:

> >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

I have several of these nics, some used in machines running FreeBSD 10 or 11
and a few just laying around as spare. Please keep the following drivers:

ae
bfe
ed
pcn
rl
vx

Most machines will be upgraded to 12+ in the future.

(I actually have 9 machines with rl nics so I think they are quite common
still)...

--
Joel
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Konstantin Belousov
In reply to this post by Rick Macklem
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 12:21:13AM +0000, Rick Macklem wrote:
> My main development machine has a bfe in it, so I will definitely be
> keeping a driver for it going. I don't care if it goes away from head/current.
> (I can leave the driver somewhere for anyone else that wants it, although

I have CoreM/1.5G laptop which netboots whatever I need for testing,
the machine has bfe in it.  It is i386 machine, this is Cores which did
not yet have long mode.  The machine is one of my bare metal i386 crash
boxes.  Am I qualified ?

Anyway, count of 5 looks quite arbitrary.
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Alexey Dokuchaev-4
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote:
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12

Holy shit!  OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't
seen one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs
are in fact 100.

> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.

Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance.  What exactly
is the burden here?  Another question: why the fuck FreeBSD likes to kill
non-broken, low-volatile and perfectly working stuff?  We offer probably
the best NIC driver support on the block, yet you're proposing to shrink
one of the few areas where we shine.  WTF?!

> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

ae(4) was used in Asus EeePC 701/900 which are still popular among hackers.
My home router uses sf(4) happily.  It's a dual-port card and I don't want
to look for expensive and completely needless replacement.  Other people
have already told you about ed/rl/etc.

> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.

As it can be seen this list tends to cover nearly all 100 cards, yet no
one (pardon me if I missed those) asks for 10.  So how about making this
proposal cover only 10 cards, if you can't resist the itch to remove
something from the tree?

./danfe
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Trevor
> On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote:
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack. >
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.

Sill using my Asus EeePC 701 (just bought a new battery pack) for
FreeBSD with ae nic (and I do not foresee discontinuing its use any time
soon as its serial port comes in handy for talking to other serial devices).
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Philip Paeps-2
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
On 2018-10-03 23:05:16 (+0200), Brooks Davis wrote:

>>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD
> 12 and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining
> and improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
>
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl

ae is still popular in many cheap Asian laptops (Asus, Acer, etc).
rl is still popular in many cheap PCI adapters.

I've not encountered any of the others in a very long time.

Philip

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Alex Kozlov-6
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:45:26AM +0200, Philip Paeps wrote:

> On 2018-10-03 23:05:16 (+0200), Brooks Davis wrote:
> > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> > improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the core
> > team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> >
> > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> >
> > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> >
> > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
> >
> > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
>
> ae is still popular in many cheap Asian laptops (Asus, Acer, etc).
> rl is still popular in many cheap PCI adapters.
+1 for ae and rl


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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

tech-lists
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
On 03/10/18 22:05, Brooks Davis wrote:
>   We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

Please do not remove rl. I have two rl interfaces in a machine built in
2011 still in daily use. One rl interface is an aftermarket card bought
new in *2016*. The other one is built into the motherboard. That's just
the stuff I personally own. rl is in lots of machines which will
probably still be running a decade from now.

I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is.

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Christoph Moench-Tegeder
In reply to this post by Alexey Dokuchaev-4
## Alexey Dokuchaev ([hidden email]):

> > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
>
> Holy shit!  OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't
> seen one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs
> are in fact 100.

Don't panic - they're talking about removing the 100 MBps NICS, not
the 100 GBps NICs.

Jokes aside - obviously there are very different populations of NICS.
Here, the only 100MBps interface is in the IP phone, and I would guess
that even most consumer hardware comes with a GBps interface on board
(heck, even RPis have a GBit interface, even if can't use more than 30%
of it's bandwith). Checking with a hardware-dealer: very few NICs in
their catalog are 100MBps, most are gigabit-grade.
I would have expected that things look different in the embedded world...
On the other hand, some data centers I know routinely use 10GBps, and
1 GBps is considered "legacy" there.

So, perceptions are very different... let's keep this rational and
make a list of cards still in use.

Regards,
Christoph

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Vladimir Terziev-4
In reply to this post by Eugene Grosbein-10
I also call for keeping of the ste(4) driver.

We use several 4-head D-Link DFE-580TX cards. Removing their support would incur serious expenses for us for replacement hardware.


> On 4 Oct 2018, at 09:03, Eugene Grosbein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 04.10.2018 4:05, Brooks Davis wrote:
>
>>>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>>
>> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
>> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
>> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
>> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
>> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
>> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>>
>> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>>
>> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
>> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>>
>> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
>>
>> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
>
> "fxpl" should have been "fxp" here, I suppose.
>
> While I have no objection for general direction, I have doubts about removal of ste(4) and especially rl(4).
> These are cheap 100Mbit VERY popular NICs sold in enourmous values in certain markets
> by vendors like D-Link and TP-Link using various trade names.
>
> Lack of support for such popular 100M cards won't be good for FreeBSD, I suppose.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Michael Schmiedgen-2
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker

>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
>
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
>

I have vr(4) on my PCEngines APU board, so good to keep it.

But I am rather surprised that you want to remove ed(4) and rl(4),
because I have seen lots of them over the years, and I can imagine
that these are built into even not-so-old cheapo NICs and boards.

Michael
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Dag-Erling Smørgrav
In reply to this post by Alexey Dokuchaev-4
Alexey Dokuchaev <[hidden email]> writes:
> Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance.

Please do not confuse “nobody is maintaining them” with “they don't need
maintenance”, because they do.  And please assume good faith.  Brooks
asked for people to speak up if they care about some of the drivers he
proposed to remove; all you had to do was say “I still use this driver”.
There was no need to attack him, much less to swear.

DES
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Claude Buisson-2
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
On 10/03/2018 23:05, Brooks Davis wrote:

>>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>

Of these, I still use: bfe

CBu
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
In reply to this post by Eugene Grosbein-10
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:53 AM Luciano Mannucci <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:03:01 +0700
> Eugene Grosbein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
> > >
> > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
> >
> > "fxpl" should have been "fxp" here, I suppose.
>

Yes.


> > While I have no objection for general direction, I have doubts about
> removal
> > of ste(4) and especially rl(4). These are cheap 100Mbit VERY popular NICs
> > sold in enourmous values in certain markets by vendors like D-Link and
> > TP-Link using various trade names.
>

Enough people are using rl that it's off the list by my count.


> > Lack of support for such popular 100M cards won't be good for FreeBSD, I
> > suppose.
>
> I have a lot of them in production systems. It would be a pity that they
> will never get a 12.x or newer version ever. I can replace few de cards
> but not everything...
>

To be clear, the proposal is that 12.x be the last branch they are
supported in and not in 13. So while we'd remove them from current soon,
they'd still be in 12 for the life of the 12.x branch, so into the early
2020's.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
In reply to this post by Alexey Dokuchaev-4
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:45 AM Alexey Dokuchaev <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance.  What exactly
> is the burden here?
>

I believe that characterization is incorrect. There's a burden. And it's
death of a thousand cuts. And many of those cuts have been inflicted on
brooks@.

Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the
years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation
because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the
tree. I did a back of the envelope computation that this is on the order of
hundreds of hours of time, spread across all the drivers over all the years
we've supported them. Some of these drivers are clearly unused, and so
that's 100% wasted effort. Most of these drivers are on machines that most
likely won't be able to run 13.0 well when it comes out in 2 years due to
increased memory demands that it will almost certainly have. The declining
use means we anticipate that if we were to maintain them until 13, it would
be wasted effort for at least some on the list.

That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to
iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid,
common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not
dozens.

At the root of this problem is the community's long resistance to having
data reported back to the project data about the machines running FreeBSD.
Absent any real and significant data, the only way to know if things are
unused is to ask. We cannot have the act of merely asking cause people to
freak out and hurl expletives all over the place. That's significantly not
cool.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Poul-Henning Kamp
--------
In message <[hidden email]>
, Warner Losh writes:

>Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the
>years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation
>because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the
>tree.

As one who has been there, a couple of times: SECONDED!

It is particular unpleasant when you have no way to test the changes.

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Robert Clausecker
In reply to this post by Warner Losh
I have a machine with FreeBSD 2.2.8 running with such an interface, but
none with FreeBSD 12, so you do have a point here.  However, I am not
sure if it's a good idea to kill this driver; it's good for over 100
different cards according to the man page, so surely there are some
users left.

Yours,
Robert Clausecker

On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 05:45:18PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 3:54 PM Robert Clausecker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I request that ed(4)
>
>
> How many FreeBSD 12.0 machines do you have running with this interface?
>
> QEMU does support this interface, but also supports the Intel E1000 series
> (em/igb), so it's not necessarily needed for QEMU.
>
> Warner

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Rick Macklem
In reply to this post by Warner Losh
Warner Losh wrote:
[lots of stuff snipped]
>That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to
>iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid,
>common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not
>dozens.

I can probably do this for bfe and fxp, since I have both.
Can someone suggest a good example driver that has already been converted,
so I can see what needs to be done?

Again, I don't care if they stay in the current/head tree.

[more stuff snipped]

rick

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
Well, I'd wager its 100 cards that nobody is currently using (ed) has no
value. Even 1000 different cards or 10,000. The ed(4) driver likely
supported in excess of 1000 different cards because so many people made
ne-2000 compatible cards... in the early 1990s. However, since nobody has
ISA or PC Card (not CardBus) interfaces anymore (those machines topped out
around 32-64MB, which FreeBSD no longer works well on), the benefit to the
project is quite low. Even the 'newer' PC Card versions that were 10/100
couldn't get more than about 10-12Mbps due to ISA/PC Card bus speed
limitations. The PCI versions were never popular (I had to hunt a bunch for
them 10 years ago when I was finishing up my activities on the driver for
my vast PC Card collection to find an example to test), and even it had
trouble beyond 20Mbps because it wasn't DMA'd. The ED driver was a solid
driver last time I tried it, but when I can plug in dozens of 100Mbps or
1Gbps cards into the same CardBus slot and those cost < $10 now, there's
very little return on programmer time to keeping this one going.

However, having said all that, if we can document 5 real users of this card
on machines running FreeBSD 12, it will meet the criteria for remaining,
just like any other driver.... So far we've found 0, while we have found
many other users of other drivers.

Warner

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 8:27 AM Robert Clausecker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a machine with FreeBSD 2.2.8 running with such an interface, but
> none with FreeBSD 12, so you do have a point here.  However, I am not
> sure if it's a good idea to kill this driver; it's good for over 100
> different cards according to the man page, so surely there are some
> users left.
>
> Yours,
> Robert Clausecker
>
> On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 05:45:18PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 3:54 PM Robert Clausecker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I request that ed(4)
> >
> >
> > How many FreeBSD 12.0 machines do you have running with this interface?
> >
> > QEMU does support this interface, but also supports the Intel E1000
> series
> > (em/igb), so it's not necessarily needed for QEMU.
> >
> > Warner
>
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Joel Dahl-3
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote:
> The criteria for exception are:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>    support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>    - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>      deemed satisfy the "popular"
>      requirement.

Why doesn't reports of uses on machines running FreeBSD 10/11 count? I don't
get it. 12.0 isn't even out yet, and most of our users are probably not
running CURRENT. As I wrote in an earlier email, I have lots of these cards
running in production - and most of them are on FreeBSD 11. They'll
likely be upgraded to 12.1 in the future (but probably not 12.0 - I usually
skip .0 releases). But doing the jump to CURRENT/12 now is just out of the
question - these are production systems after all.

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Alexey Dokuchaev-4
In reply to this post by Alexey Dokuchaev-4
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:43:33AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> As far as I know, none of the drivers listed could do 1Gbps.

Right.  My point was that original proposal put 10/100 drivers into one
basket, which is IMHO not fair: 10Mbps cards are rarely seen and used,
100mbps are not, just like 1000bps ones.

That said, I'm okay with deorbiting NICs that cannot do more than 10mbps.
Cards that can do at least 100mbps should stay.  Following up on Ricks'
question, seeing a good example of modernization a certain driver would
help interested people/hw owners to keep drivers for their cards viable.

./danfe
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