Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Mark Linimon-2
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:34:30AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> What I am finding very bothersome at this point is that a great
> miss understanding has been conveyed onto the users by the
> statement that "core has discussed this and we plan to proceed
> as proposed"

I really don't understand why people don't assume good faith anymore.

I read it as "core has discussed setting up an FCP".

Warner could have just posted something to -current saying "I'm going
to delete these on xyz2019 unless they're updated to use iflib."  It
would have been a lot less work and stress on his part than trying
to do things The Right Way.

Having people look through every single word in every single post
looking for hidden meanings is one of the things that is absolutely
taking all the fun out of FreeBSD.  Frankly if I wanted to have
everything gone over with a fine-tooth-comb I'd go back into the
workforce.  tl;dr: no, thanks.  I liked the old "shut up and code"
days better.

ob. disclaimer: don't assume that Warner and I agree on much of anything,
but IMHO he's trying to go about things the right way this timee.

mcl
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Joel Dahl-3
In reply to this post by Eugene Grosbein-10
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 12:23:17PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:18 PM Eugene Grosbein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote:
> >
> > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> >
> > vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as
> > it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports
> > in my home router).
> >
>
> Sorry, I'd meant to type vx. :) It's for the first generation of 3com cards
> after the 3C5x9 ones supported by the ep driver.

I mentioned vx. Working fine here:

vx0: <3COM 3C590 Etherlink III PCI> port 0x1100-0x111f irq 20 at device 0.0 on pci16

--
Joel
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Doug Hardie
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see that listed in either category.  None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as it has not been released.  Also there are some with rl.  Those are add-on boards so they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the machines are about a 4 hour drive from here and would require reconfiguration (an error prone process when you are tired).

I also have two production machines with ue devices.  There is no provision for replacing them.  They are running an early version of 12 as 11 doesn't run on those machines.  I don't see ue listed in either category.

-- Doug

> On 3 October 2018, at 14:05, Brooks Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
>
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
>
> The criteria for exception are:
> - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>   support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>   - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>     deemed satisfy the "popular"
>     requirement.
> - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
> - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
>
> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.
>
> The full FCP-0101 is included below.
>
> -- Brooks
>
> ---
> authors: Brooks Davis <[hidden email]>
> state: feedback
> ---
>
> # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers
>
> Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
> FreeBSD 13.
>
> ## Problem Statement
>
> Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
> improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
> 32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
> NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
> interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
> iflib, but each additional driver takes work.
>
> 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
> and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
> are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
> removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.
>
> For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
> systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
> machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
> retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
> removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
> drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
> 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).
>
> ## Proposed Solution
>
> We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> will entail:
> - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
> - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
>   attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
>   to FreeBSD 12.
> - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
>   freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
> - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
>   devices.
>
> Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
> list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
> the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
> - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>   support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>   - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>     deemed satisfy the "popular"
>     requirement.
> - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
> - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
>
> ### Exceptions to removal
>
> Device | Reason
> -------|-------------------------------------------------
> ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
> fxp    | Popular device long recommended by the project.
> dc     | Popular device for CardBus card.
> hme    | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
> le     | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
> sis    | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641.
> vr     | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards.
> xl     | Popular device for CardBus card.
>
> Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round.
>
> ### Device to be removed
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> ## Final Disposition
>
> TBD

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Peter Jeremy-8
In reply to this post by Alexey Dokuchaev-4
On 2018-Oct-04 08:44:11 +0000, Alexey Dokuchaev <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance.  What exactly
>is the burden here?

As various others have stated, this isn't true.  All the code in FreeBSD has
an ongoing maintenance cost and is an impediment to adding new features.
There is no point in spending valuable developer effort to update drivers
and test them with unusual/obsolete hardware unless those drivers are going
to actually be used.

>Another question: why the fuck FreeBSD likes to kill
>non-broken, low-volatile and perfectly working stuff?

That language is uncalled for.

>We offer probably
>the best NIC driver support on the block, yet you're proposing to shrink
>one of the few areas where we shine.  WTF?!

Supporting NICs that no-one uses doesn't benefit anyone.  No-one is talking
about removing NICs that are in active use.

>ae(4) was used in Asus EeePC 701/900 which are still popular among hackers.

Those netbooks are more than a decade old now and I don't expect many are
still functional.  Will people still expect to use them with FreeBSD 13 in 5
years time?

>As it can be seen this list tends to cover nearly all 100 cards, yet no
>one (pardon me if I missed those) asks for 10.  So how about making this
>proposal cover only 10 cards,

What is the purpose in keeping unused FastEthernet cards in the tree?

>if you can't resist the itch to remove
>something from the tree?

Again, that language is uncalled for.

--
Peter Jeremy

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Julian H. Stacey-3
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
> >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one
using xe or ex.  That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril.

Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers,
stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade
again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc.

Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping
live code is offensive.  Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions
forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except
maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ...
until their nets don't work.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich
 Brexit: 3,700,000 stolen votes in 1st referendum inc. 700,000 from Brits in EU
 Campaign lies & criminal funding, economy & pound down: New referendum needed.
                        http://exitbrexit.uk
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Andrew Turner
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker

> On 3 Oct 2018, at 22:05, Brooks Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
>
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

smc is found in the Arm models (simulators) [1]. I’ve seen it in the Foundation and Architecture Envelope Models. I assume it’s also in the other models, but don’t have a license for them to check.

Andrew

[1] https://developer.arm.com/products/system-design/fixed-virtual-platforms

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:05 AM Andrew Turner <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > On 3 Oct 2018, at 22:05, Brooks Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> >
> > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> > improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> > core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> >
> > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> >
> > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> smc is found in the Arm models (simulators) [1]. I’ve seen it in the
> Foundation and Architecture Envelope Models. I assume it’s also in the
> other models, but don’t have a license for them to check.
>

Do we currently support those simulators? I see it is in the VERSATILEPB
simulator that QEMU provides. Does that still work?

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Michael Schmiedgen-2
In reply to this post by Ian Lepore-3

> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.


vr(4) here in im PCEngines ALIX board running OPNsense.

Michael
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Eric Joyner-3
Being an Ethernet driver maintainer and being at most 4 years old when Fast
Ethernet was introduced makes me biased to the point of irrelevant here,
but I absolutely am all for drivers for old 100M-only devices being removed.

I just can't really understand the support. I'd be incredibly annoyed if
anything I owned was 100M-at-most (like my Wi-Fi router), and Intel is
already dropping support left and right for 100M speeds on newer things.
Maybe it just comes down to money.

- Eric

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:28 AM Michael Schmiedgen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
>
>
> vr(4) here in im PCEngines ALIX board running OPNsense.
>
> Michael
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Julian H. Stacey-3
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
Thanks for the reply warner,

Warner Losh wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 8:46 AM Julian H. Stacey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> > >
> > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> > > improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> > >
> > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> > >
> > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> >
> > I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one
> > using xe or ex.  That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril.
> >
>
> Later in the thread rl was removed from the list.

That's a partial relief.


> What systems are you running ed, ex and/or xe on? So far I've heard no
> reports of people using the latter two in about a decade.

I can look more later, but for a quick partial reply:
I keep an incomplete ad hoc occasionaly/rarely updated list of logs,
useful for odd questions such as this, so I can run quick checks

cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ;    grep ed0: * */* | grep port # ... vi
        dual film flip lapn loft slim wind
cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep ed0: * */*
        dual film flip lapl loft park rain snow wall wind

cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ;    grep xe0: * */*
        lapd lapo
cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep xe0: * */*
        nothing

cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ;    grep ex0: * */*
        nothing
cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep ex0: * */*
        nothing

Hosts above are custom PCs no model numbers, but these are standard laptops:
 xe: lapd: Digital HiNote Ultra2000 http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/digital/
 ed: lapl: Toshiba Libretto 70CT http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/toshiba/libretto/
 ed: lapn: Dell Latitude XPi P133ST http://berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/dell_latitude_xpi_p133st
 xe: lapo: Novatech (MiTAC) 8355 http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/

( PS ed0 is also used by Hewlett Packard Network ScanJet 5 a multi sheet
feeder with FreeBSD built inside, however that's stuck on a seriously
old release, still a great device though - http://berklix.com/scanjet/ )

PS My master kernel config from pre 4.11 to current:
http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/jhs/sys/amd64/conf/HOLZ

So quick summary:
        ex: I dont seem to use
        ed: I use on many of my hosts, not just those above, & I have some spare
            to stick in to any PCI or ISA box I work on if needed.
        ed & xe I also have on pcmcia & cardbus, so they move around between laptops.


> Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers,
> > stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade
> > again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc.
> >
>
> You could also create a port/pkg for them and assume the burden of
> maintenance yourself.

Didn't know drivers could be farmed out to ports/, sounds like a
recipe for breakage sooner or later.


> > Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping
> > live code is offensive.  Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions
> > forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except
> > maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ...
> > until their nets don't work.
> >
>
> I think in this case there will be plenty of warning. They will upgrade to
> 12, one assumes, and see the deprecation message in their new kernel logs.
> There's going to be about a 6 month window between when this is announced
> and when it happens to collect evidence that removal is unwarranted, to
> show they are still in use by enough people to justify their on-going (yes
> non-zero) cost to keep in the tree. There's over 2 years before they will
> be removed from a released version: also plenty of time to build a case
> that they are in use and/or upgrade to different, supported NICs. If you
> look at the rest of the thread, you'll see several people have made
> compelling cases and/or provided evidence of continued use into the future
> to keep the drivers in the tree. Evidence will save them, but harsh words
> will not.
>
> I think expecting people to blindly maintain code on the off chance someone
> is still using is offensive as well. We must weigh the costs of continuing
> with the benefits those cost provide. We don't have good sources of data
> for what's still in use and what's not, so we have to rely on these
> periodic calls for data to ensure we aren't wasting our time on hardware
> that's no longer used.
>
> Warner

Yes, needs careful balance.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich
 Brexit: 3,700,000 stolen votes in 1st referendum inc. 700,000 from Brits in EU
 Campaign lies & criminal funding, economy & pound down: New referendum needed.
                        http://exitbrexit.uk
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Jamie Landeg-Jones-2
In reply to this post by Christoph Moench-Tegeder
Brooks Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 04:18:22PM +0100, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote:
> > Remember, it's not simply deprecating cards less than 1Gig.
> >
> > I have a card that is 10/100 only, but works fine with the gigabit alc driver:
> >
> > alc0: <Atheros AR8162 PCIe Fast Ethernet> port 0x2000-0x207f mem 0xe0500000-0xe053ffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1
>
> There are no plans to touch such drivers.

Yep, sorry I wasn't clear. That's what I meant - I was responding to someone
who was worried that the support was being dropped for 100Mbps cards.

cheers, Jamie
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

John-Mark Gurney-2
In reply to this post by Cy Schubert-4
Warner Losh wrote this message on Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 09:53 -0600:

> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not
> > scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs,
> > including wireless, currently installed here.
> >
>
> There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has
> evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and
> committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the current
> iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend.

Can you recommend one?  It'd be nice to just document which driver you
should use as a reference in the iflib man page...

I looked briefly at converting awg over to iflib,
but the iflib man pages were very sparce in any text to describe what
each function needs to do...  It says it in very high level, which is
useful if you already know what needs to be done..  for example:
           ifdi_tx_queues_alloc()
           Mandatory function that is called during iflib_attach to allocate
           transmit queues.  vaddrs and paddrs are arrays of virtual and
           physical addresses respectively of the hardware transmit queues.
           ntxqs is the number of queues per qset.  ntxqsets is the number of
           qsets.

It says it allocates memory for the queue, but upon allocation where
does it put the values?  It sounds like vaddrs and paddrs arrays are
already allocated and you just use these addresses...  But there is no
way I can write code from this description...

Also, lots of terminology is missing, like what is a qset?

--
  John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579

     "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not."
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Nikita Druba
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
04.10.2018 0:05, Brooks Davis пишет:

>>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
>
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
>
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
>
> The criteria for exception are:
>   - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>     support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>     - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>       deemed satisfy the "popular"
>       requirement.
>   - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>   - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
>
> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.
>
> The full FCP-0101 is included below.
>
> -- Brooks
>
> ---
> authors: Brooks Davis <[hidden email]>
> state: feedback
> ---
>
> # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers
>
> Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
> FreeBSD 13.
>
> ## Problem Statement
>
> Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
> improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
> 32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
> NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
> interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
> iflib, but each additional driver takes work.
>
> 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
> and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
> are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
> removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.
>
> For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
> systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
> machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
> retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
> removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
> drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
> 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).
>
> ## Proposed Solution
>
> We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> will entail:
>   - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
>   - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
>     attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
>     to FreeBSD 12.
>   - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
>     freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
>   - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
>     devices.
>
> Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
> list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
> the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
>   - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>     support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>     - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>       deemed satisfy the "popular"
>       requirement.
>   - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>   - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
>
> ### Exceptions to removal
>
> Device | Reason
> -------|-------------------------------------------------
> ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
> fxp    | Popular device long recommended by the project.
> dc     | Popular device for CardBus card.
> hme    | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
> le     | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
> sis    | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641.
> vr     | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards.
> xl     | Popular device for CardBus card.
>
> Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round.
>
> ### Device to be removed
>
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> ## Final Disposition
>
> TBD
Hello!

My servers use rl and bfe devices from deprecated list. Also I have some
ed devices for replacement failed adapters.

Also I can try do convertion to iflib for bfe, rl and ed devices, but
still no one not showed good example driver that has already been
converted...

P.S. So late, because I was away and just returned.



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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:52 AM Matthieu Volat <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Would it be possible to set a wiki page/section in 12 that display the
> current status of removal of those devices? That might be easier for people
> to look at their hardware actual state rather than try to trace every
> answer to this thread...
>

The FCP is being updated and will be uploaded when that's done. At
this point, it seems that we have all the data to make the right decisions,
at least to tag the drivers deprecated for the 12.0 release when I'm sure
will get us additional data.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Matthieu Volat-2
On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 12:27:48 -0600
Warner Losh <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:52 AM Matthieu Volat <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Would it be possible to set a wiki page/section in 12 that display the
> > current status of removal of those devices? That might be easier for people
> > to look at their hardware actual state rather than try to trace every
> > answer to this thread...
> >  
>
> The FCP is being updated and will be uploaded when that's done. At
> this point, it seems that we have all the data to make the right decisions,
> at least to tag the drivers deprecated for the 12.0 release when I'm sure
> will get us additional data.
>
> Warner

Thanks for the info!

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Julian H. Stacey-3
In reply to this post by Robert Clausecker
> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.

vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
vr0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
        options=82808<VLAN_MTU,WOL_UCAST,WOL_MAGIC,LINKSTATE>
        ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
        inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
        media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX <full-duplex,flowcontrol,rxpause,txpause>)
        status: active

Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich.
 Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU.
 Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref.
        http://exitbrexit.uk        https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Julian H. Stacey-3
In reply to this post by Doug Hardie
Doug Hardie wrote:
> I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see that listed in either category.  None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as it has not been released.  Also there are some with rl.  Those are add-on boards so they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the machines are about a 4 hour drive from here and would require reconfiguration (an error prone process when you are tired).

bge is also used by my main laptop with current Oct 15 18:33 /boot/kernel/kernel

bge0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
        options=c019b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,VLAN_HWCSUM,TSO4,VLAN_HWTSO,LINKSTATE>
        media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT <full-duplex>)

Doug, I think bge must be safe as man 4 bge:
"bge - Broadcom BCM57xx/BCM590x Gigabit/Fast Ethernet driver"
& Brooks proposal was ... "a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers"

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich.
 Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU.
 Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref.
        http://exitbrexit.uk        https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition
                https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Brooks Davis-2
In reply to this post by Julian H. Stacey-3
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:

> > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
>
> vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> vr0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
>         options=82808<VLAN_MTU,WOL_UCAST,WOL_MAGIC,LINKSTATE>
>         ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
>         inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
>         media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX <full-duplex,flowcontrol,rxpause,txpause>)
>         status: active
>
> Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.
The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.

-- Brooks

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Julian H. Stacey-3
Hi, Reference:
> From: Brooks Davis <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:10:37 +0000

Brooks Davis wrote:

>
> --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Disposition: inline
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, sm=
> c,
> > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, a=
> nd
> > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> >=20
> > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > vr0: flags=3D8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 15=
> 00
> >         options=3D82808<VLAN_MTU,WOL_UCAST,WOL_MAGIC,LINKSTATE>
> >         ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> >         inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
> >         media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX <full-duplex,flowcontrol,rx=
> pause,txpause>)
> >         status: active
> >=20
> > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.
>
> The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.

Great, Thanks.

Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich.
 Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU.
 Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref.
        http://exitbrexit.uk        https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition
                https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Rodney W. Grimes-4
In reply to this post by Brooks Davis-2
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> >
> > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > vr0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
> >         options=82808<VLAN_MTU,WOL_UCAST,WOL_MAGIC,LINKSTATE>
> >         ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> >         inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
> >         media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX <full-duplex,flowcontrol,rxpause,txpause>)
> >         status: active
> >
> > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.
>
> The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
>
> -- Brooks
Brooks,
        Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the
feedback which is what core is voting on?

--
Rod Grimes                                                 [hidden email]
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