Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Cy Schubert-4
In message <[hidden email]>, Wojciech
Puchar wr
ites:

> >
> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
>
> Just as fashion changes.

Every seven years (approximately) the shift between centralization to
decentralization and back occurs. It started out with reimplementation
of applications once on the mainframe on the PC. It centralized back to
large UNIX servers, back to thick clients, then thin clients, now back
to the cloud. However there is a distinct path by which technology is
evolving. Currently the shift to microservices is making the operating
system irrelevant. The Linux-specific API and ABI is winning. I
predicted this to my management at $JOB almost ten years ago, telling
them the operating system will become a stub. And, here we are.

My points were:

A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
evolving virtualization technologies.

B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.

> >
> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
>
> What do you mean "capitalized"?

Made use of.

>
> FreeBSD already allow to do all mentioned things, but anyway someone
> who use FreeBSD is usually smart enough  to not blidnly copy what is now
> trendy.

Kind of but we need to play in that space. Look at some of the other
*BSDs, Solaris and AIX. One BSD failed to embrace SMP like we did. They
also failed to embrace vritualization to the degree we did. Except for
a small niche for which they are well known they are a two bit player.

Blindly copy? No. But be able to play somewhere in the space, most
definitely. We have very good technology. The reason we are where we
are is thanks to a large part in our adoption of strategic
technologies. Rust IMO is not strategic. Sure fork FreeBSD and if it's
of benefit import it back. (Even a project branch.) I think we need to
focus our efforts on more productive endeavours. Endeavours that help
maintain the relevance we still have and preferably build on it.
Importing rust will cause a fair bit of churn consuming already meager
developer resources (which is why the cull is planned and in progress),
even of those not directly participating in the project. If we're
looking for work there is a lot out there that will help build on our
market share -- which in turn will increase adoption, which in the long
run will hopefully keep FreeBSD relevant for the long haul.


--
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        The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.




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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Wojciech Puchar-8
>
> My points were:
>
> A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
> evolving virtualization technologies.
>
> B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
> Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
> may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.

C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD?

Not everyone needs the same.
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Cy Schubert-4
In reply to this post by Cy Schubert-4
In message <[hidden email]>, Wojciech
Puchar wr
ites:

> >
> > My points were:
> >
> > A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
> > evolving virtualization technologies.
> >
> > B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
> > Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
> > may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.
>
> C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD?

Because we offer some technologies the others do not. Unfortunately
inferior and incompatible approaches (similarly: VHS vs BETA, Blue Ray
vs HD) have left us on the outside. Try porting Kubernetes to FreeBSD.

The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building
blocks onto which future technologies will be built.

>
> Not everyone needs the same.

Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.


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Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
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        The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.


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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Igor Mozolevsky-2
On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 at 19:51, Cy Schubert <[hidden email]> wrote:

<snip>

> Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
> my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.

Interesting, back in the 90s I went for FreeBSD (and stuck with it)
for the exact opposite reasons: it was a no thrills bare metal OS that
didn't try to be "everything" like Linux distros were! :-))


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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Poul-Henning Kamp
In reply to this post by Cy Schubert-4
--------
In message <[hidden email]>, Cy Schubert writes:

>The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building
>blocks onto which future technologies will be built.

Or has history has repeatedly taught people who thought they were
home free:  Rapidly replaced when somebody gets a better idea.

Both as far as containers and systemd, there is a LOT of room for improvement.

FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"

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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Cy Schubert-4
In reply to this post by Cy Schubert-4
In message <[hidden email]>, "Poul-Henning Kamp"
writes:

> --------
> In message <[hidden email]>, Cy Schubert write
> s:
>
> >The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building
> >blocks onto which future technologies will be built.
>
> Or has history has repeatedly taught people who thought they were
> home free:  Rapidly replaced when somebody gets a better idea.
>
> Both as far as containers and systemd, there is a LOT of room for improvement
> .
>
> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"

We should try to fit into the datacentre.


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Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
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        The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.


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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Poul-Henning Kamp
--------
In message <[hidden email]>, Cy Schubert writes:

>> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
>
>We should try to fit into the datacentre.

... and RPi's, access-points, NAS devices, routers, televisions, photocopiers,
sewage-treatment-plant-monitoring, high-voltage-switching,
stock-trading, air-traffic-control, scientific super-computing,
antiproliferation-monitoring, laptops, desktops and ...

I hope you get the point ?

--
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Cy Schubert-4
In reply to this post by Cy Schubert-4
In message <[hidden email]>, "Poul-Henning Kamp"
writes:

> --------
> In message <[hidden email]>, Cy Schubert write
> s:
>
> >> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
> >
> >We should try to fit into the datacentre.
>
> ... and RPi's, access-points, NAS devices, routers, televisions, photocopiers
> ,
> sewage-treatment-plant-monitoring, high-voltage-switching,
> stock-trading, air-traffic-control, scientific super-computing,
> antiproliferation-monitoring, laptops, desktops and ...
>
> I hope you get the point ?

That's exactly my point. What subset of things can and should we focus
on?

Adding or replacing a language or languages in base should be
consistent with the long-term direction of The Project. What is that?
Getting back to why this sub-thread was spawned off the main thread in
the first place: Is it strategic to add rust to base? (Remember when
Perl was in base?)


--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
FreeBSD UNIX:  <[hidden email]>   Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org

        The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.


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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Rodney W. Grimes-4
In reply to this post by Poul-Henning Kamp
> --------
> In message <[hidden email]>, Cy Schubert writes:
>
> >> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
> >
> >We should try to fit into the datacentre.
>
> ... and RPi's, access-points, NAS devices, routers, televisions, photocopiers,
> sewage-treatment-plant-monitoring, high-voltage-switching,
> stock-trading, air-traffic-control, scientific super-computing,
> antiproliferation-monitoring, laptops, desktops and ...

As far as I am concerned Linux can have the datacenter...
I find this list much more interesting :-)
 
> I hope you get the point ?

:-)

>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> [hidden email]         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
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>

--
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Poul-Henning Kamp
In reply to this post by Cy Schubert-4
--------
In message <[hidden email]>, Cy Schubert writes:
>In message <[hidden email]>, "Poul-Henning Kamp"
>writes:

>That's exactly my point. What subset of things can and should we focus on?

Whatever you as a contributor needs and enjoys.

>Adding or replacing a language or languages in base should be
>consistent with the long-term direction of The Project.

Forget adding new botique languages to base:  That's not happening
any time soon, if ever, for all the reasons already enumerated.

Until somebody comes up with an
AbsolutelyMustHaveBeforePackagesCanBeInstalled program written in
$Language, $LanguageCompiler stays in ports where it belongs.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
[hidden email]         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Poul-Henning Kamp
In reply to this post by Rodney W. Grimes-4
--------
In message <[hidden email]>, "Rodney W. Grimes" writes:

>> ... and RPi's, access-points, NAS devices, routers, televisions, photocopiers,
>> sewage-treatment-plant-monitoring, high-voltage-switching,
>> stock-trading, air-traffic-control, scientific super-computing,
>> antiproliferation-monitoring, laptops, desktops and ...
>
>As far as I am concerned Linux can have the datacenter...
>I find this list much more interesting :-)

Me too.

Data-centers are booooring!

--
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[hidden email]         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

freebsd-hackers mailing list
Quoting Poul-Henning Kamp <[hidden email]> (from Fri, 04 Jan 2019  
22:42:31 +0000):

> --------
> In message <[hidden email]>,  
> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes:
>
>>> ... and RPi's, access-points, NAS devices, routers, televisions,  
>>> photocopiers,
>>> sewage-treatment-plant-monitoring, high-voltage-switching,
>>> stock-trading, air-traffic-control, scientific super-computing,
>>> antiproliferation-monitoring, laptops, desktops and ...
>>
>> As far as I am concerned Linux can have the datacenter...
>> I find this list much more interesting :-)
>
> Me too.
>
> Data-centers are booooring!
Which means that x developers with commit bits in FreeBSD are free to  
develop whatever they want.

This does not mean that all users of FreeBSD agree.
This does not mean that all developers with commit bits in FreeBSD agree.

Do you want to limit what y developers with commit bits in FreeBSD are  
working on?

 From what I hear here I get the impression that there are people  
which want to limit that y developers want to explore the benefits of  
feature A. Nobody told so war we have to import anything into base  
yet. The initial request was to get an idea about opinions. Nobody  
told we have to rewrite the kernel in rust, there were infos that  
there may be benefit in having parts of it in rust, which can be  
explored e.g. in ports. Nobody asked to replace a critical boot time  
component. As we are not a company were the people are paid to work on  
specific items (yes, there are people paid to work in parts, please  
forgive me that I don't count them here... we don't talk about them  
doing this work), we can not really tell that this takes away  
development resources away from other work (those developers may not  
work on something else, or they may work on something which is not  
"strategic").

And if you really think that containers (in whatever color...  
kubernetes, docker, "jails" or whatever) are only datacenter tools...  
well... have again a look at NAS devices, laptops, and desktop systems  
(and whatever).

I don't have a datacenter at home, but I use a lot of containers at  
home. I use them in the "jail"-color (every service his own jail, I  
even have a desktop-setup-in-a-jail...). I don't use them as is, I use  
tools. ezjail, iocage, whatever color you want. Would openstack be  
overkill here? Maybe. Maybe not. Would I give it a try if we would  
have openstack in ports in my basement? Yes I would -- why should I  
limit myself to linux to have a look at openstack/kubernetes/docker...  
we have the infrastructure to make it possible (I let it up to you to  
decide if we have a better infrastructure/base for this or not).

I expect in the long run virtualisation and containers arrive in a lot  
of places, even in those you have listed above as not boring. There  
are benefits in the upgrade path, there are benefits in handling  
dependencies (compared to an one box does everything), there are  
benefits in the security area (yes, we have capsicum which addresses  
some aspects, but not all as if each part runs in it's own jail).

FreeBSD comes from the "power to serve" area. You can off course tell  
that access-points, NAS devices (which also exist in datacenters...)  
and routers are "serving", but datacenters are the traditional area of  
"the power to serve". Basically if you tell that datacenters are  
boring, you tell that we shall turn around and that e.g. the CDN of  
Netflix is not the area we want to target (I would not agree that this  
CDN is some sort of NAS, for me this is more like a  
web-/ftp-/<protocol_of_the_day>-server, so something which resides  
traditionally in a datacenter).

Bye,
Alexander.

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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Wojciech Puchar-8
In reply to this post by Cy Schubert-4
>>> A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
>>> evolving virtualization technologies.
>>>
>>> B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
>>> Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
>>> may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.
>>
>> C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD?
>
> Because we offer some technologies the others do not. Unfortunately
> inferior and incompatible approaches (similarly: VHS vs BETA, Blue Ray
> vs HD) have left us on the outside. Try porting Kubernetes to FreeBSD.
no need to.

>
> The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building
> blocks onto which future technologies will be built.
>
and this is really sad.

>>
>> Not everyone needs the same.
>
> Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
> my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.

Simple bare metal O/S is what is really needed.
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Wojciech Puchar-8
In reply to this post by Igor Mozolevsky-2
>
>> Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
>> my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.
>
> Interesting, back in the 90s I went for FreeBSD (and stuck with it)
> for the exact opposite reasons: it was a no thrills bare metal OS that
> didn't try to be "everything" like Linux distros were! :-))

And that's the reason i use it for everything.
I don't need to do fashionable things, as large corporations do this en
masse for dumb masses, and few others blidnly repeating the same.


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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Wojciech Puchar-8
In reply to this post by Wojciech Puchar-8
> I agree. I find that FreeBSD's jail system is the best virtualization available now and don't see the reason to start poking around
> with Docker and similar.

Agree. You don't have directories named with random hex numbers. you
simply know what is where.

While i've used jails a lot i recently use it rarely. Because i
found that usually they are not needed. Standard unix protection
mechanisms (processes, users, groups) are just fine. For example apache
runs just fine as user.

I completely don't understand why the fashionable microservices (which are
not bad idea as they should have dependencies) needs jail-like
environments, instead of simply running a process in a separate user account.

What is wrong in ALL systems today are shared libraries or languages
(like python or perl) that depends on millions of files. Getting rid of
them will make "microservice" idea the right way.

Simply having static executable to be run. Or multiple static executables
communicating by pipes.

So "microservices" means rediscovering 1980-style (and earlier) way of
writing programs. Rediscovering but with of course messy way.

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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Wojciech Puchar-8
In reply to this post by Poul-Henning Kamp
> home free:  Rapidly replaced when somebody gets a better idea.
>
> Both as far as containers and systemd, there is a LOT of room for improvement.

as of systemd the best "room for improvement" is deleting it.

> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"

Definitely not systemd alike. Current mechanisms are fine.
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Wojciech Puchar-8
In reply to this post by Cy Schubert-4
>> .
>>
>> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
>
> We should try to fit into the datacentre.
>
To whose gain?
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Igor Mozolevsky-2
In reply to this post by Wojciech Puchar-8
On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 15:15, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

<snip>

> What is wrong in ALL systems today are shared libraries or languages
> (like python or perl) that depends on millions of files. Getting rid of
> them will make "microservice" idea the right way.
>
> Simply having static executable to be run. Or multiple static executables
> communicating by pipes.

Couldn't agree more: when I did run jails, I would just compile a
static binary and jail that process (of course devd made that a bit of
a pain, but eventually you can figure out what's needed to have a
single statically-linked binary jail without the bloat).

--
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Wojciech Puchar-8
>> (like python or perl) that depends on millions of files. Getting rid of
>> them will make "microservice" idea the right way.
>>
>> Simply having static executable to be run. Or multiple static executables
>> communicating by pipes.
>
> Couldn't agree more: when I did run jails, I would just compile a
> static binary and jail that process (of course devd made that a bit of
> a pain, but eventually you can figure out what's needed to have a
> single statically-linked binary jail without the bloat).

i usually  don't run devd.

Why can't you run your static binary simply as user?
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Igor Mozolevsky-2
On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 15:32, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

<snip>

> Why can't you run your static binary simply as user?



I'm sure there was a good reason for doing so, but it was over a
decade ago and for the life of me I can't remember what that reason
was...

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