Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

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Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Cy Schubert-4
In message <[hidden email]>, Wojciech
Puchar wr
ites:
> >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
> >
> > And this is why one reason people say “FreeBSD is dying”.
> >
> dying for whom?

Not to answer this question but to think strategically:

I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
cloud and back again easily.

Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
effectiveness of standing up applications.

IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports.

Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster.

This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.

Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.


--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
FreeBSD UNIX:  <[hidden email]>   Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org

        The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.


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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Alan Somers-2
On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> In message <[hidden email]>, Wojciech
> Puchar wr
> ites:
> > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> > >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
> > >
> > > And this is why one reason people say “FreeBSD is dying†.
> > >
> > dying for whom?
>
> Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
>
> I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
> supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
> microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
> virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
> containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
> cloud and back again easily.
>
> Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
> containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
> And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
> are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
> effectiveness of standing up applications.
>
> IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
> Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
> importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
> PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
> FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
> Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports.
>
> Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
> and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
> addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
> virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
> FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
> or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster.
>
> This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
>
> Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
> FreeBSD UNIX:  <[hidden email]>   Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org
>
>         The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.

FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
there's any reason to put it into base.  The interesting thing about
Rust is that it's so good at low-level work.  As we discussed,
Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust.  And Fabian
Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust.  Enji
is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust.  These are the
kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the
language barrier.  Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports.
If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base
system, it might be Lua.  Though high level, its embeddable and nicely
complements C and Rust.  That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and
it even in the NetBSD kernel.

-Alan
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Cy Schubert-4
In message <CAOtMX2jdDSUwtifm=[hidden email]>
, Alan Somers writes:

> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > In message <[hidden email]>, Wojciech
> > Puchar wr
> > ites:
> > > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> > > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> > > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> > > >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
> > > >
> > > > And this is why one reason people say FreeBSD is dying.
> > > >
> > > dying for whom?
> >
> > Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
> >
> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
> > supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
> > microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
> > virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
> > containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
> > cloud and back again easily.
> >
> > Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
> > containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
> > And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
> > are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
> > effectiveness of standing up applications.
> >
> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
> > Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
> > importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
> > PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
> > FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
> > Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports.
> >
> > Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
> > and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
> > addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
> > virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
> > FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
> > or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster.
> >
> > This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
> >
> > Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
> > FreeBSD UNIX:  <[hidden email]>   Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org
> >
> >         The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
>
> FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
> there's any reason to put it into base.  The interesting thing about
> Rust is that it's so good at low-level work.  As we discussed,
> Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust.  And Fabian
> Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust.  Enji
> is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust.  These are the
> kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the
> language barrier.  Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports.
> If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base
> system, it might be Lua.  Though high level, its embeddable and nicely
> complements C and Rust.  That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and
> it even in the NetBSD kernel.

I didn't specifically suggest it had to be in base, hence "or ports."
(My preference is almost always ports.) My point was, let's step back
and lay out a roadmap. If rust is in the roadmap, fine. Rust, which is
already in ports, and other things we might want should align with
that direction.

Meta ports such as a PaaS, OpenShift, or cloud-server metaports could
tie it all together for users.

pkgbase would add flexability and in so doing solve some issues too.

>
> -Alan
>

Cheers,
Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
FreeBSD UNIX:  <[hidden email]>   Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org

        The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Warner Losh
In reply to this post by Alan Somers-2
On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 3:53 PM Alan Somers <[hidden email] wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > In message <[hidden email]>, Wojciech
> > Puchar wr
> > ites:
> > > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get
> *pushed*
> > > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> > > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> > > >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
> > > >
> > > > And this is why one reason people say “FreeBSD is dying†.
> > > >
> > > dying for whom?
> >
> > Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
> >
> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
> > supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
> > microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
> > virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
> > containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
> > cloud and back again easily.
> >
> > Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
> > containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
> > And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
> > are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
> > effectiveness of standing up applications.
> >
> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
> > Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
> > importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
> > PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
> > FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
> > Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports.
> >
> > Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
> > and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
> > addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
> > virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
> > FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
> > or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster.
> >
> > This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
> >
> > Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
> > FreeBSD UNIX:  <[hidden email]>   Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org
> >
> >         The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
>
> FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
> there's any reason to put it into base.  The interesting thing about
> Rust is that it's so good at low-level work.  As we discussed,
> Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust.  And Fabian
> Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust.  Enji
> is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust.  These are the
> kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the
> language barrier.  Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports.
> If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base
> system, it might be Lua.  Though high level, its embeddable and nicely
> complements C and Rust.  That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and
> it even in the NetBSD kernel.
>

We already have. The boot loader uses the latest, almost stock version. ZFS
uses it's weird, hacked version to send down config programs. The build
glue to get a luac is pretty small at this point :)

Warner

>
> -Alan
> _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[hidden email]"
>
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Alan Somers-2
On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:43 PM Warner Losh <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 3:53 PM Alan Somers <[hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > In message <[hidden email]>, Wojciech
>> > Puchar wr
>> > ites:
>> > > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
>> > > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
>> > > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
>> > > >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
>> > > >
>> > > > And this is why one reason people say “FreeBSD is dying†.
>> > > >
>> > > dying for whom?
>> >
>> > Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
>> >
>> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
>> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
>> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
>> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
>> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
>> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
>> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
>> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
>> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
>> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
>> > supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
>> > microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
>> > virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
>> > containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
>> > cloud and back again easily.
>> >
>> > Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
>> > containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
>> > And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
>> > are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
>> > effectiveness of standing up applications.
>> >
>> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
>> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
>> > Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
>> > importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
>> > PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
>> > FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
>> > Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports.
>> >
>> > Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
>> > and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
>> > addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
>> > virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
>> > FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
>> > or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster.
>> >
>> > This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
>> >
>> > Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Cheers,
>> > Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
>> > FreeBSD UNIX:  <[hidden email]>   Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org
>> >
>> >         The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
>>
>> FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
>> there's any reason to put it into base.  The interesting thing about
>> Rust is that it's so good at low-level work.  As we discussed,
>> Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust.  And Fabian
>> Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust.  Enji
>> is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust.  These are the
>> kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the
>> language barrier.  Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports.
>> If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base
>> system, it might be Lua.  Though high level, its embeddable and nicely
>> complements C and Rust.  That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and
>> it even in the NetBSD kernel.
>
>
> We already have. The boot loader uses the latest, almost stock version. ZFS uses it's weird, hacked version to send down config programs. The build glue to get a luac is pretty small at this point :)
>
> Warner

Wow, I'm way behind then.  Maybe I'll actually need to learn it.
-Alan
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Wojciech Puchar-8
In reply to this post by Cy Schubert-4
>
> I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of

Just as fashion changes.
>
> IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language

What do you mean "capitalized"?

FreeBSD already allow to do all mentioned things, but anyway someone
who use FreeBSD is usually smart enough  to not blidnly copy what is now
trendy.

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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Damjan Jovanovic
On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 12:37 PM Wojciech Puchar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >
> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
>
> Just as fashion changes.
> >
> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
>
> What do you mean "capitalized"?
>
> FreeBSD already allow to do all mentioned things, but anyway someone
> who use FreeBSD is usually smart enough  to not blidnly copy what is now
> trendy.
>
> +1000
There is way too much fashion in IT nowdays.

Maybe one of the reasons that many software stacks lately make statically
linked binaries (eg. Go and Rust), and containers that embed every
dependency are becoming popular, is that Linux has no base system and only
distro-specific packages, and thus poor API/ABI compatibility between
distros and distro versions, so it really needs these features?
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Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components)

Enji Cooper
In reply to this post by Alan Somers-2

> On Jan 3, 2019, at 14:51, Alan Somers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> In message <[hidden email]>, Wojciech
>> Puchar wr
>> ites:
>>>>> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
>>>>> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
>>>>> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
>>>>> resounding NO, save for bloat.
>>>>
>>>> And this is why one reason people say “FreeBSD is dying†.
>>>>
>>> dying for whom?
>>
>> Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
>>
>> I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
>> my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
>> large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
>> virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
>> from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
>> on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
>> effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
>> canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
>> implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
>> microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
>> supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
>> microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
>> virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
>> containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
>> cloud and back again easily.
>>
>> Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
>> containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
>> And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
>> are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
>> effectiveness of standing up applications.
>>
>> IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
>> Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
>> Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
>> importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
>> PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
>> FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
>> Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports.
>>
>> Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
>> and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
>> addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
>> virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
>> FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
>> or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster.
>>
>> This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
>>
>> Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Cy Schubert <[hidden email]>
>> FreeBSD UNIX:  <[hidden email]>   Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org
>>
>>        The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
>
> FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
> there's any reason to put it into base.

+1. Kubernetes should remain as a port, given the development process that Facebook and Google use being out of step with the BSDs (backwards compatibility to the degree that BSD wants is generally a lower priority item).

> The interesting thing about
> Rust is that it's so good at low-level work.  As we discussed,
> Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust.  And Fabian
> Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust.  Enji
> is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust.

Sidenote: not wanting to do an rc(8) replacement. More like a system monitor of sorts, paralleling what devd does with device events and such.

> These are the
> kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the
> language barrier.  Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports.
> If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base
> system, it might be Lua.

Lua’s already in base — the bootloader is being rewritten from forth to Lua.

> Though high level, its embeddable and nicely
> complements C and Rust.  That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and
> it even in the NetBSD kernel.

And Linux kernel for that matter, iirc. It’s a wonderful, stripped down language. It’s just a bit awkward to write because its lexicography/grammar matches pure mathematics as opposed to many other C-like languages.

Thanks :),
-Enji
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