Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

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Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Sascha Valckenier Kips
Hello,

i will build a new System with Intel Q6600 Quad CPU and more than 4 GB RAM.
I need a ISDN-Card into this System. Currently i have a AVM Fritz!Card
V1 PCI.

On the Hardware Notes of FreeBSD 6.2/amd64 are no ISDN-Interfaces.

Have anybody a amd64 System with ISDN ?
Possible a Intel dual core or quad core ?

Thanks for answers.

Regards
Sascha Valckenier Kips
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Jung-uk Kim
On Thursday 29 November 2007 11:30 am, Sascha Valckenier Kips wrote:
> Hello,
>
> i will build a new System with Intel Q6600 Quad CPU and more than 4
> GB RAM. I need a ISDN-Card into this System. Currently i have a AVM
> Fritz!Card V1 PCI.
>
> On the Hardware Notes of FreeBSD 6.2/amd64 are no ISDN-Interfaces.

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/network-isdn.html

I haven't seen it myself but your card is listed in there.

> Have anybody a amd64 System with ISDN ?
> Possible a Intel dual core or quad core ?

Unfortunately i4b doesn't seem to support amd64.  Why don't you try
FreeBSD/i386 instead?

Jung-uk Kim
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Bjoern A. Zeeb
On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, Jung-uk Kim wrote:

Hi,

> On Thursday 29 November 2007 11:30 am, Sascha Valckenier Kips wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> i will build a new System with Intel Q6600 Quad CPU and more than 4
>> GB RAM. I need a ISDN-Card into this System. Currently i have a AVM
>> Fritz!Card V1 PCI.
>>
>> On the Hardware Notes of FreeBSD 6.2/amd64 are no ISDN-Interfaces.
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/network-isdn.html
>
> I haven't seen it myself but your card is listed in there.
>
>> Have anybody a amd64 System with ISDN ?
>> Possible a Intel dual core or quad core ?
>
> Unfortunately i4b doesn't seem to support amd64.  Why don't you try
> FreeBSD/i386 instead?

You will need either:

- i386/RELENG_6

or:

- i386 + C4B

or:

- amd64 + C4B + a bit of unsupported patches i can give you

or:

- Talk to hps if his i4b stack supports amd64



For 7.0 ISDN support is very limited because it lacks locking.

/bz


--
Bjoern A. Zeeb                                 bzeeb at Zabbadoz dot NeT
Software is harder than hardware  so better get it right the first time.
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Sascha Valckenier Kips
Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, Jung-uk Kim wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> On Thursday 29 November 2007 11:30 am, Sascha Valckenier Kips wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> i will build a new System with Intel Q6600 Quad CPU and more than 4
>>> GB RAM. I need a ISDN-Card into this System. Currently i have a AVM
>>> Fritz!Card V1 PCI.
>>>
>>> On the Hardware Notes of FreeBSD 6.2/amd64 are no ISDN-Interfaces.
>>
>> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/network-isdn.html 
>>
>>
>> I haven't seen it myself but your card is listed in there.
>>
>>> Have anybody a amd64 System with ISDN ?
>>> Possible a Intel dual core or quad core ?
>>
>> Unfortunately i4b doesn't seem to support amd64.  Why don't you try
>> FreeBSD/i386 instead?
>
> You will need either:
>
> - i386/RELENG_6
>
> or:
>
> - i386 + C4B
>
> or:
>
> - amd64 + C4B + a bit of unsupported patches i can give you
>
> or:
>
> - Talk to hps if his i4b stack supports amd64
>
>
>
> For 7.0 ISDN support is very limited because it lacks locking.
>
> /bz
>
>

Hello Bjoern,

the i386 Version has a limitation with RAM. More than 4 GB Ram into a
System does not work with 32 Bit. Only the PAE Only is a way, but the
support for Devices with PAE is very bad.

The c4b can posible a solution.

Thanks for your answer.

Regards,

Sascha Valckenier Kips
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Oliver von Bueren
In reply to this post by Bjoern A. Zeeb
Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote:
> - Talk to hps if his i4b stack supports amd64
>
> For 7.0 ISDN support is very limited because it lacks locking.
>
Good Day.

I suggest to try the i4b by HPS, you'll find it here:
http://www.turbocat.net/~hselasky/isdn4bsd/
Or better, you'll find how to get the latest by SVN, don't try the tar
ball from the site, too old.

I still don't know why nobody bothers to include the i4b by HPS into the
main tree. I couldn't use the built-in stack since ages because of the
lack of proper card support for passive cards with CAPI support, which
is working in his version. Active ones might be better in the tree.

Oliver
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Gary Jennejohn-3
On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:53:55 +0100
Oliver von Bueren <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I still don't know why nobody bothers to include the i4b by HPS into the
> main tree. I couldn't use the built-in stack since ages because of the
> lack of proper card support for passive cards with CAPI support, which
> is working in his version. Active ones might be better in the tree.
>

HPS has a rather arcane coding style which makes it hard to maintain
his code in the tree. We don't want code in the tree which can be
maintained/understood by only one external developer.

As a port it would probably be OK, but it might be difficult to
integrate it cleanly. Still, there are other ports which touch the
kernel, so it should be doable. AFAIK HPS hasn't considered this
possiblility.

--
Gary Jennejohn
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Hans Petter Selasky
On Saturday 01 December 2007, Gary Jennejohn wrote:

> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:53:55 +0100
>
> Oliver von Bueren <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I still don't know why nobody bothers to include the i4b by HPS into the
> > main tree. I couldn't use the built-in stack since ages because of the
> > lack of proper card support for passive cards with CAPI support, which
> > is working in his version. Active ones might be better in the tree.
>
> HPS has a rather arcane coding style which makes it hard to maintain
> his code in the tree. We don't want code in the tree which can be
> maintained/understood by only one external developer.
>
> As a port it would probably be OK, but it might be difficult to
> integrate it cleanly. Still, there are other ports which touch the
> kernel, so it should be doable. AFAIK HPS hasn't considered this
> possiblility.

Hi Gary,

Regarding code style I have a script that will make the code more FreeBSD KNF
compliant. I just haven't had time to work so much at it. If you think you
can do better I will gladly accept patches and improvements into my SVN repo.

When I started out on ISDN4BSD more than 6 years ago everything was greek to
me. Now I understand it all. Maybe that is the problem. You have to spend
more time to understand others code ?

--HPS
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Oliver von Bueren
Hans Petter Selasky wrote:

> On Saturday 01 December 2007, Gary Jennejohn wrote:
>  
>> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:53:55 +0100
>>
>> Oliver von Bueren <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>    
>>> I still don't know why nobody bothers to include the i4b by HPS into the
>>> main tree. I couldn't use the built-in stack since ages because of the
>>> lack of proper card support for passive cards with CAPI support, which
>>> is working in his version. Active ones might be better in the tree.
>>>      
>> HPS has a rather arcane coding style which makes it hard to maintain
>> his code in the tree. We don't want code in the tree which can be
>> maintained/understood by only one external developer.
>>
>> As a port it would probably be OK, but it might be difficult to
>> integrate it cleanly. Still, there are other ports which touch the
>> kernel, so it should be doable. AFAIK HPS hasn't considered this
>> possiblility.
>>    
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Regarding code style I have a script that will make the code more FreeBSD KNF
> compliant. I just haven't had time to work so much at it. If you think you
> can do better I will gladly accept patches and improvements into my SVN repo.
>
> When I started out on ISDN4BSD more than 6 years ago everything was greek to
> me. Now I understand it all. Maybe that is the problem. You have to spend
> more time to understand others code ?
>
>  
Hi Gary and Hans Petter

I'm not a contributor to FreeBSD but I do software development in the
ISDN area and like to add some comments myself about the coding style
and usability for the end-user of the ISDN stack in FreeBSD in general.
 
It can be debated which coding style one should use for C programming.
C/R is one, it is quite good, with some small problems as it was thought
out in the days where the display was 80x25. I don't think this is the
case today.
The code in i4b is formated well. Compared to other randomly picked code
in the sys/-tree I can't see much differences. If you like to debate the
location of the opening { after an if/else/... statement, I prefer the
one on the next line, which is not C/R. It just makes it very clear what
a block is, start to end. It's much harder to match a starting if with
the closing } as it is to match two braces, opening { to closing }
aligned correctly.

So IMHO the style of code formating can't be the problem with the code
written by HPS. This leaves only the complexity of the code itself, or
better what it has to provide a solution for. Having programmed ISDN
protocols myself, I've to say that he sticked to the layer model of ISDN
quite well.
That said, and with the comment HPS made himself, with the knowledge he
now has, it would be far easier to re-write the complete code into a
cleaner structure. I value the work HPS has done a lot and would never
ask him to re-do that just for the sake of a somewhat cleaner code
structure. And I'm not sure this would achieve a goal in terms of
maintainability anyway.
What it does not change is the complexity of the ISDN protocol itself.
Without reading some ECMA or ITU-T documents nobody will get what the
code does. But that is nothing the developer can be blamed for. ISDN is
a protocol which evolved over some generations which introduced quirks
one would not start with in the first place.
So it you like to tell us that the ISDN protocol itself is arcane, there
is some truth about it. It did take me some time to get used to it, but
with some practice every programmer able to read technical documentation
can maintain that code, given enough time to get into it.

For me FreeBSD is the OS of choice for many years now, starting out with
2.1x. The ISDN support in the current system is still the one done by
Hellmuth at that time. For todays needs it is no more what is required.
He did good work in that time but at some point he quit that project and
moved on. He has to get credits for starting this of and maintaining it
for some time.

So for me it's the choice of having old code in the tree, which kind of
works but does not cover my needs anymore OR move on and incorporate a
newer version having moved into the current days with support of
hardware that is available. Or does someone still use the 8bit Teles ISA
ISDN card? I have once, but they are long gone, don't have a system with
ISA anymore.

My rant has got quite long and I do not intend to start a war about
coding style. These are just my thoughts about usability form an
end-user point of view. Integrating it into the main tree would perhaps
attract some more developers and it would be possible to have it on all
builds, amd64 included, as a working stack, if enough interest is around.

Cheers,
Oliver

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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Bjoern A. Zeeb
On Sun, 2 Dec 2007, Oliver von Bueren wrote:

Hi,

> So for me it's the choice of having old code in the tree, which kind of works
> but does not cover my needs anymore OR move on and incorporate a newer
> version having moved into the current days with support of hardware that is
> available. Or does someone still use the 8bit Teles ISA ISDN card? I have
> once, but they are long gone, don't have a system with ISA anymore.

I still have some Teles cards around and they have been working fine,
so why should I replace them? I don't need a PCIE only quad core machine to
drive an ISDN line.

That said, what would "your needs" be? List them. All. With details. People
need to know about them.


> view. Integrating it into the main tree would perhaps attract some more
> developers and it would be possible to have it on all builds, amd64 included,
> as a working stack, if enough interest is around.

If there would be enough interest, more people would have stood up and
- helped with the current code
- helped hps with his code to get it in
- ...

No, there is great demand but only few hands.

--
Bjoern A. Zeeb                                 bzeeb at Zabbadoz dot NeT
Software is harder than hardware  so better get it right the first time.
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Oliver von Bueren
 Hi Bjoern

>> So for me it's the choice of having old code in the tree, which kind
>> of works but does not cover my needs anymore OR move on and
>> incorporate a newer version having moved into the current days with
>> support of hardware that is available. Or does someone still use the
>> 8bit Teles ISA ISDN card? I have once, but they are long gone, don't
>> have a system with ISA anymore.
>
> I still have some Teles cards around and they have been working fine,
> so why should I replace them? I don't need a PCIE only quad core
> machine to
> drive an ISDN line.
>
> That said, what would "your needs" be? List them. All. With details.
> People
> need to know about them.
I don't have the very latest quad-core hardware around either, but
having the need to upgrade FreeBSD 4.x system, which have ISA cards in,
to a more recent hardware, perhaps to no more used servers aged around 3
years old, I have to buy new cards because of the lack of ISA bus. I
don't need  massive CPU power for the ISDN lines, these machines often
do a hole range of tasks.
 
My needs are to have a CAPI interface for "recent" passive cards like
the AVM Fritz PCI and the multi-port cards by various brands,
http://www.beronet.net/ is a starting point, but there are others which
use the same chipset.

The hardware for obvious reasons, I can't get my old Teles cards to work
in the more recent servers.
The CAPI because of many apps require it. Like CallWeaver or Asterisk,
like some fax apps.

BTW: I belief the old Teles ISA card is still supported by the
HPS-Version of i4b. My intention was not to throw out support for older
hardware, but to integrate the new ones and make newer interfaces like
CAPI available in the base system.

> No, there is great demand but only few hands.
I know that, believe me. I did and sometimes still do some debugging to
get "my" stuff working and if I somehow can, I give my patches back so
others can use them if they like to. And it's the time or better lack
thereof which prevents me from taking on a project to move it forward.
Most of us have a busy life. Some twenty years ago, I could spend
considerable time developing software. The Internet was not what it is
today, my software was for the FidoNet, which some might remember.

Cheers,
Oliver



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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Gary Jennejohn-3
In reply to this post by Bjoern A. Zeeb
On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 11:59:45 +0000 (UTC)
"Bjoern A. Zeeb" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Dec 2007, Oliver von Bueren wrote:
> > view. Integrating it into the main tree would perhaps attract some more
> > developers and it would be possible to have it on all builds, amd64 included,
> > as a working stack, if enough interest is around.
>
> If there would be enough interest, more people would have stood up and
> - helped with the current code
> - helped hps with his code to get it in
> - ...
>
> No, there is great demand but only few hands.
>

I really shouldn't be commenting on this stuff at all, since I
1) haven't looked at i4b in years and
2) don't even have a src-commit bit any more

I was thinking about this a little yesterday. It seems like one approach
would be for someone to sponsor HPS for a src-commit bit and he could
then import his stuff under /usr/src/contrib and keep it up-to-date.

That could be a good fit since there are already lots of things in
there which are maintained by external developers or by a single
developer.

The problem is finding a committer who is interested enough in i4b to
step forward and invest time in this. I lost interest years ago after
DSL became affordable here in Germany.

Another option, as I wrote in my previous mail, would be to have HPS'
stuff in a port. This IMO would be the path of least resistance.

--
Gary Jennejohn
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Oliver von Bueren
Gary Jennejohn wrote:

>> If there would be enough interest, more people would have stood up and
>> - helped with the current code
>> - helped hps with his code to get it in
>> - ...
>>
>> No, there is great demand but only few hands
>
> I really shouldn't be commenting on this stuff at all, since I
> 1) haven't looked at i4b in years and
> 2) don't even have a src-commit bit any more
>
> I was thinking about this a little yesterday. It seems like one approach
> would be for someone to sponsor HPS for a src-commit bit and he could
> then import his stuff under /usr/src/contrib and keep it up-to-date.
>
> That could be a good fit since there are already lots of things in
> there which are maintained by external developers or by a single
> developer.
>
> The problem is finding a committer who is interested enough in i4b to
> step forward and invest time in this. I lost interest years ago after
> DSL became affordable here in Germany.
>
> Another option, as I wrote in my previous mail, would be to have HPS'
> stuff in a port. This IMO would be the path of least resistance.
>
>  
Hi Gary

The thing with the DSL making ISDN kind of obsolete counted for me for
some time as well. I've used i4b with the IP over HDLC for my first ISDN
internet dialup access able to route a 3bit subnet. These times are long
gone, but now the ISDN is back for me in a very different way, as a
bridge between VoIP and the public telephone network. ISDN is a thing
not common to the American continent , making it much harder to have
proper support for it.

 From my point of view it would be better to have it in the tree and not
as a port. The main reason for this thinking is that the current (and
only) way for HPS to have it integrate into the system is by patching
quite a lot of files. This has to break from time to time as the base
system moves on. Every time it does, a new effort is needed to "fix" or
better re-integrate it. If it would be integrated into the base/contrib
in a way that avoids the installation by patching method, this could
possibly be avoided as well and the resources/time used for more
productive work than doing the same task over and over again.

I understand the problem with finding someone able and willing to lend
HPS a hand in getting it in in the first place. My other question is,
does HPS like the idea of having it in the tree and maintaining it there?
Hans Petter, what's your point of view on this?

Cheers,
Oliver

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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Bjoern A. Zeeb
In reply to this post by Bjoern A. Zeeb
On Fri, 30 Nov 2007, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote:

Hi,

> or:
>
> - amd64 + C4B + a bit of unsupported patches i can give you

This is a compile time tested version only. With this C4B-1.1.1
compiles again HEAD (and I hope it would work as well). I had
C4B-1.1.1 running on RELENG5/amd64 and RELENG6/amd64 with older
version of that patch.

http://sources.zabbadoz.net/freebsd/i4b/c4b-20071202-01.diff

[In case Thomas reads this, do not include that patch as is, in your
  C4B tree. Send me private mail and we'll do the PRIV parts the right
  way.]

The above patch enables i4bcapimgr for amd64 as well. For that to work
you need I4B support on amd64.


I have used (an older version of the following patch) to make I4B
simply compile on amd64 and it worked well enough so that I could use
isdnd as a call monitor along with a C4B supported card installed on
amd64. I only tested with <4GB om RAM and no I4B supported card in the
machine.

http://sources.zabbadoz.net/freebsd/i4b/i4b-head-amd64-20071201-03.diff


This is a gross hack! Nothing more. If you want to try it at your own
risk, feel free. If anything breaks or crashes your system - you have
been warned.

You may report problems on freebsd-isdn but don't expect a fix or answer
any time soon.

--
Bjoern A. Zeeb                                 bzeeb at Zabbadoz dot NeT
Software is harder than hardware  so better get it right the first time.
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Hellmuth Michaelis
In reply to this post by Oliver von Bueren
On Sunday 02 December 2007 21:18:54 Oliver von Bueren wrote:

> I understand the problem with finding someone able and willing to lend
> HPS a hand in getting it in in the first place.

This is not the problem. Hans Petter has been offered several roads to
walk for years to get his code in one way or the other into the tree
but he refused to walk any and all of them and this is the reason why
the code in question is not in the tree.

This subject has been discussed to death in private and in public, please
see the isdn list archives for the public part of the discussion.

hellmuth
--
Hellmuth Michaelis          HM1-RIPE           mobil +49 (0)160 / 96 45 56 96
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Bjoern A. Zeeb
In reply to this post by Oliver von Bueren
On Sun, 2 Dec 2007, Oliver von Bueren wrote:

Hi,

> From my point of view it would be better to have it in the tree and not as a
> port. The main reason for this thinking is that the current (and only) way
> for HPS to have it integrate into the system is by patching quite a lot of
> files. This has to break from time to time as the base system moves on. Every
> time it does, a new effort is needed to "fix" or better re-integrate it. If

That effort is needed if it's in the tree or outside as the tree moves
on one way or the other.

I just kind of did that for C4B outside the tree.



> it would be integrated into the base/contrib in a way that avoids the
> installation by patching method, this could possibly be avoided as well and
> the resources/time used for more productive work than doing the same task
> over and over again.

Thomas has done a great job with the last C4B releases making sure
that they can just be compiled outside the tree. Make life a lot
easier than in the earlier where I patched my local tree again and
again. Imho there were two few lines commits needed to make this
happen.


I am not really saying that this is the way to go, but it is an option.

/bz

--
Bjoern A. Zeeb                                 bzeeb at Zabbadoz dot NeT
Software is harder than hardware  so better get it right the first time.
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Hans Petter Selasky
In reply to this post by Hellmuth Michaelis
On Monday 03 December 2007, Hellmuth Michaelis wrote:

> On Sunday 02 December 2007 21:18:54 Oliver von Bueren wrote:
> > I understand the problem with finding someone able and willing to lend
> > HPS a hand in getting it in in the first place.
>
> This is not the problem. Hans Petter has been offered several roads to
> walk for years to get his code in one way or the other into the tree
> but he refused to walk any and all of them and this is the reason why
> the code in question is not in the tree.
>
> This subject has been discussed to death in private and in public, please
> see the isdn list archives for the public part of the discussion.
>
> hellmuth

Hi,

The only way offered so far is the incremental patch way.

The problem is that I don't have time to turn all of my changes into an
incremental approach. It is too time consuming. Anyway there will be several
hundred incremental patches, and I doubt that Hellmuth does ever have time to
review that.

Regarding the subject of ISDN: The hardware interface that ISDN uses might be
old-fashioned and slow, but the theory of setting up and tearing down calls
is not oldfashioned. I would say that not knowing ISDN in the phone business
is like going to church without having read the Bible.

The current status of my ISDN project is that the code is stable and many
people use it.

Outstanding issues so far:

- Improve the Echo Canceller which now uses integer FFT.
- Get rid of some macros.
- Style the code.

I suspect this will be finished some time after Christmas, because I'm very
busy with my USB project at the moment. It would be nice to have my ISDN code
in the FreeBSD tree, but I think that must wait until I have finished my USB
stuff. Maybe we should continue this discussion after Christmas?

--HPS
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Re: Support of ISDN Subsystem under Freebsd 6.x/7.x - amd64

Hans Petter Selasky
In reply to this post by Hellmuth Michaelis
Hi,

> Maybe we should continue this discussion after Christmas?

I have been thinking a little bit and I believe that ISDN4BSD will become more
IP-based in the future. ISDN4BSD already puts all data into so called "mbufs"
which are used to hold IP-packets. Internally ISDN4BSD could possibly use the
IP stack when briding a call, because then it will become possible that the
sound can be routed directly to the physical piece of hardware that is
handling a call, instead of routing everything into userland, through
Asterisk for example, and then back again into the kernel. Of course this
might mean that we have to put some voice codecs into the kernel, but I think
that support for A-law and u-law will be sufficent for a while.

Maybe each ISDN adapter should allocate a network adapter for itself and then
feed all D-channel and B-channel data into the kernel through IPv4 or IPv6
UDP frames to a programable IP-address. Then if you have a firewall loaded in
the kernel, routing those IP-packets somewhere else can be a piece of cake.
This also brings up some interesting questions like that the DSS1 protocol
becomes a UDP client in the kernel. Then you can actually run the DSS1
protocol on a different machine than the one where the ISDN cable is
physically connected.

Any comments ?

--HPS
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